How many brothers and sisters did you have?
Well - don-'t know about all of 'em, I - only - what I can remember, one brother like as I grew up. 'Course all the others - and they'd - three sisters then. And a -and then my brother - we lived in the buildings in Marney Road and - my mother had a little place there, five and six a week. Two rooms and a little off room.
And you said your mother had some other children who you think died?
Yes, well I didn't remember all that see, only what she told me.
How many did she say she had?
She had seventeen all told she said.
But you only knew four?
Yes. And - yes.
Were they older than you?
Oh yes.
Can you remember how many years?
My - my eldest sister who died she was like - what I can remember, she was eighty-seven, died about six or seven year ago. And - my brother - he was - he was forty-seven when he died just after the first world war. And - my sister alive now, she's eighty-one, so I'm the youngest one you see. And -
How old was your father when you were born?
Sixty-one or sixty-three, I'm not sure for two years.
He was sixty-one when you were born?
Oh no. Before I was married - he died about 19 - 1918, he was - sixty-three or sixty-one then see.
Do you know where your father came from?
No. No. My mother was born over - Lambeth. She used to tell me, I don't know about my father. Born over - New Cut Amber she used to say.
Do you think your father was a Londoner?
Oh he was a Londoner, yes. No, I don't know where he was born.
What was his occupation?
Well, he was a - you know, used to drive a - one horse - cart. When he was at work. And - he used to bring home a golden sovereign, put on my mother's table, that was her week's wages.
Did he have any other jobs before this?
Well a day here and a day there, when he could get it he used to be out - oh - two three in the morning queuing up for when they took the men on the following morning and - perhaps the men in the front'd get a day's work and when his turn came he got nothing. And - he'd wander around, see if he could get a bit of work, and - he'd come home at twelve o'clock in the day with nothing. My mother give him a bit of bread and cheese and a piece of Spanish onion to eat, then she'd go up Burdett Road and perhaps get a twopenn'orth of pieces, make a stew for me and my sister, and - 'cos my eldest sister, she was married then, but - the one alive now she was at home. And - she worked at the rope ground over Coburn Road in Bow. And I remember my mother used to make a dinner up, hot dinner, I used to take it over in two plates with a cloth over, take it over every day. She only had about half hour's lunchtime. And I was at school then. 'Cos she's six years older than I am see.
So mainly your father drove a cart?
Yes. His last job was up Burdett Road here, under the arch, the place is still there. It was all stables down there and I - when I go up there any time of the week I always remember my father. But I don't know what they use them for now but - that was his last job, he used to drive this one horse - cart you know.
What did he carry?
Timber and that you know. And if I had a holiday from school he'd take me down Farnborough or over Chelsea, I remember that well when I was a child, taking me out for a ride.
Can you remember how old your mother was when you were born?
My mum - when she was - oh no. She was seventy-one when she died, I know that, so
When did she die?
Oh - I had three children when she passed away. I know she was seventy-one but -
Was that before the second world war?
Yes.
You think she died before 1940?
My son round her is forty-two, and he was five weeks old when she died, how would that - she's been dead forty - forty-odd years now.
Where did she come from?
Lambeth.
Had she had any jobs before she married?
Oh - oh I don't know about before she married, I - can't say.
Did she work after she was married? No, she used to tell me that she was - had a nice house at Walthamstow, she - my father was his own governor in the coal business, you know, my father had - men working for him and - and they robbed him, you know, he used to like a drop of drink, they used to rob him and that and he - he lost all his money like that. She used to tell me all that you know. She -
That was her father?
Yes. My father. My father. And - she'd say, I never - when I was a child she'd say I've never been - always been like this, poor. I've been - I've had plenty of money, had - someone do her work, someone do her washing and that, but - she used to tell me a lot, my mother.
That was in her early years was it?
Yes. Like - when I can remember, about nine or ten year old she used to tell me all that, yes. She used to take in washing. I've known her be up all night doing washing up and down the board and - hanging the washing up on all the pictures all round the room. She would say to me, we're going to have different pictures tonight, and - me and my dad used to walk to - from Mile End right to Aldgate -couldn't afford a penny on the tram, used to be horsetrams. And - two Jewish ladies up there in Wentworth Street near the market - take the washing up there, shilling a dozen my mother used to get for that. And - used to mangle 'em and that. And - used to - they used to give us a penny extra, we used to ride back on the tram. And she'd spend that - two shillings, like each bundle, might be a dozen and a half in each bundle, all depended, she used to get me a bit of breakfast - and something for dinner. We never starved, although it was very hard. She was a good mother.
Can you remember her doing any other jobs?
Who?
Your mother, besides the laundry?
No, washing. Washing. She used to tell me that in the - before I was born she used to go around with doctors delivering babies. She used to like some - never belonged to anywhere but she used to go - with these doctors and bring babies in the world. But I say with my children she lost her nerve, she'd say, I can't do that now. She'd do anything in my place, she'd look after me, I had nurses and doctors but - I can't bring babies now in the world, my - nerve's gone, but - she used to do all that.
If she brought washing into the house would she do that in the mornings?
Well - she'd stop up late - perhaps during the night and do it. She worked very hard my mother.
How many times a week do you think she did this?
Well, all different people you see round - that could - well afford to have their washing done, they used to give it to
her to do. But Aldgate was the two ladies there - we used to take the washing to, up in the Buildings they
had, Wentworth Street.
[...]
Did you have any tasks you had to carry out regularly at home to help your mother and father?
Always helped with the - what I could do in the place bit of - housework and - when my sister started work I - I had to take her place, do the housework, and - I remember my mother used to put me on a - stand me on a box near a tub, we used to have the wooden tubs to do the washing in then, and they used to have a scrubbing brush to scrub the washing, rub the soap on, and - she used to let me do the tea towels and the handkerchiefs, my mother. She used to teach me to - she said, as you grow up you'll know how to do these things, used to - watch her cook, like I've done all my children. I've taught them all - only plain cooking but - they can do anything, my children. Yes. It doesn't hurt children I don't think.
How long did you go on doing these jobs in the home?
'Til I went to work.
Even after you left school?
Yes. And my dad wouldn't let me go to work before I was nearly sixteen, being the last one at home. He said, you stay at home and help your mother. Well then we moved - I remember - when I was nearly sixteen we lived - up in Stepney - another little house. And she paid seven shillings a week for that. And - of course as I got older I - starting courting and - got married in 1920, well - I would - yes, 1920, she was there a few years in that house, my mother. And then - and then when I started having my children I had her live with me, my mother, company. Until I had about three children, then she got a little room - still up Stepney and - that's where she - lived 'til she died.
Did the older child help the younger, did your older brother and sister help you with anything your found difficult?
Oh, we all helped one another. Yes.
They could help you with dressing and eating.
Oh no. Not dressing.
Even when you were very small?
Oh, he may have done, yes. My mother see they took - you know - did their little jobs.
Did you help your older brother and sister in any way?
If I could. Yes.
Were you expected to go to bed at a certain time?
Yes.
What time was that?
Well, about half past eight.
Did your mother or anyone else put you to bed?
Oh no, she taught us - we had a chair at the side of the bed and - and - we had to undress ourself and - used to have a curtain somewhere up, and we had the chair to put our clothes on, so we always knew where to find things. She had the one routine, you know, my mother.
At what age did you put yourself to bed?
Well - about - eight.
Did you share the bedroom or the bed with any of the other children?
Well we had to, we only had two rooms and an off room. My - 'Cos my brother got married and - and - we - we just had the room to live in and a - one bedroom. We had like little beds for ourself. There was a curtain like in - the middle. That's how we lived. But we were decent you know.
What room did you bath in?
Well, my mother used to have a - a tub, this tub she done her washing in in the - the living room, and - my dad went out she used to - let us bath ourself like, if we had no baths to go to, public baths. Still we were always clean. My - my family we never - I never had a bathroom 'til - not - all through my eight children I've had. But we was always clean, in two rooms we lived.
How often did you have a bath when you were a child?
Twice a week. All depended, if I got dirty.
When did you have clean clothes?
About twice a week if my mother could get 'em dry and that, she was always doing her washing.
[...]
Did your father take an interest in politics?
No.
You don't know what his views were?
No.
You can't remember who you think he'd have voted for?
Oh he'd - vote Labour. But - you never heard him argue about politics, he - it was strong Labour man you know, but he'd never get in no arguments.
What about in the early years, do you think he'd have voted for the Liberals?
No. No. Labour.
Why do you think he would vote for Labour?
I don't know really. He had - I don't think he'd ever vote any - only Labour. I don't know why he -
Do you think your father thought that the working man had a square deal at that time?
Well I don't know much about that you see, when I was a child, I didn't understand things then. But I know he was a strong Labour man that's all.
Do you remember your father or mother voting in a general election before 1918?
No, I don't remember that.
Do you remember your mother showing any interest in politics?
No. No. My mother didn't bother. No.
You don't know if she voted in 1918 when women got the vote?
No, I remember when it was on you know, what - do you mean the - suffragettes do you mean? Yes, I remember the suffragettes but I didn't know much about them, I - I remember they - chained theirself to the railings and that but - we wasn't interested nothing like that.
In some places at that time men felt they risked losing their jobs if they voted differently from their employers, do you know if your father felt himself under that kind of pressure, to vote?
Well - don't know, my - I mean, he didn't have much work, my father at all. He was under the Tory - it was all Tories
then you see, not Labour like it is now. All Tories, that's why we had a - we was all lived the same,
poor. A child to - there was no work no food, we - my mother couldn't - I remember when I was - three days before I was
twelve - my mother bought some fish, fried fish, used to get about six or seven pieces for sixpence.
Lovely it was. And I was poisoned in mine what I ate and - my father - went over Bancroft Road where Mile End Hospital is
now, Board of Guardians over there, and - he went there for the doctor. And - it was like going
before a judge and jury he said for a doctor. They asked all the ins and outs, so we - so anyway he got the doctor in
the finish and - Relieving Officer - what we called 'em says to my father, next time you come over
here put your new suit on. Father said, if I had a new suit, he said, I'd pawn it, he said, and I've have a - I'd pay
for a doctor for my child, I wouldn't come to the likes of you. He told him that. And - however he came and
ordered me away, I was - over at Mile End hospital we called it Bancroft Road Hospital then, for a - a month. They fed me
well over there, looked after me, but - it was very hard, you couldn't get a doctor, you had to got
before all like a judge and jury and - tell you, you couldn't get no help at all. Very bad. Everyone was - lived the same.
[...]
Did anyone outside the home help your mother look after her house or family? No relations or friends or neighbours?
No. No. No.
If your mother was ill or confined to bed how did she manage?
Well we used to do our best, she never had no one in. But my mother used to go into other people if they were ill. But - no one come in to her.
Did your parents have any relatives living nearby?
No, not as I know of. No. I never knew. No. My - I had no grandparents, they was dead. But a few - my mother used to have a sister over the Borough, what they called the Borough, Southwark way and - oh she died when I was youngster. She had one sister over there but - otherwise - that's all the relatives I knew she had.
Did your parents have any friends?
No.
They didn't have people who'd drop into the house?
No. No.
Or go to visit them?
No. Not as I remember, no.
So you don't remember friends ever being invited into the house?
Perhaps on a Saturday night - a man my father knew, perhaps him and his wife'd come but not very often. Come for a chat.
Can you remember if they'd be offered anything to eat or drink?
Well my mother - there was always a cup of tea for anybody there. Oh yes, And if had anything in the place it was - they was always welcome.
Would these be your father's friends or your mother's friends.
No, my - someone my father knew. But my mother never invited anybody.
These were people from work usually, his friends from work?
I don't know - he may have been a workmate of my father's. I don't know, but I remember they used to come now and again.
Did your neighbours ever come in without an invitation?
No. My mother'd perhaps have her next door neighbour in on - on a Sunday have a chat, if she had time. But - but not a lot of people went - no.
Did your parents ever go out to visit friends or neighbours?
No, they didn't seem to - bother.
[...]
Do you think you benefited from going to school?
Well - it didn't do us any harm you know. There's - there's a lot they - what they didn't learn at school and they learn after don't they, a lot - lot of children. Yes. 'Cos - we wasn't taught like they are these days. It was just the ordinary schooling you know.
If your mother couldn't read and write herself she would be pleased that her children got the chance?
Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes, we had to learn and - I was glad that we could read and write.
Had your mother been to school?
My mother? Well she used to tell me that - she - in her - early - time her mother couldn't -they had to pay to go - for their children to go to school and - and her mother lived at Norfolk. And - her mother couldn't afford her - my mother to go to school. And that's where she didn't have the education like we had. That's why she couldn't read or write you see. And I used to - hold a pen in her hand to try and get her to write her name before she died. And - 'cos she used to have to put cross to everything, like they do now, there's a lot of people now can't - read or write. But - no - not that - it's - can't help that, but - we've all been able to read and write, she was pleased you know. Yes. They never had the - schools these days. They couldn't afford to send their children to school so therefore they had no schooling see. So we were lucky. Didn't have to pay when we went to school. So - as time goes on it's better isn't it. Children don't realise today how lucky they are do they a lot of 'em. They are really lucky. Well I had two of my children won scholarships, my daughter in America and that one up Leicester. And - I got five pound a quarter for my girl in America. And I used to have buy uniform. 'Cos five pound them days was a lot. And a - and hat, everything. And the summer dresses I used to pay the school weekly what I could afford, for two summer dresses for her 'cos they all had dressed alike, and her blazer and that. Used to wear these big white straw hats. At - the one up Leicester - when they - offer - offered me five pound I wouldn't take it. I says, no good to me. Years after you see. My daughter in America's forty-seven now. Well that one's thirty-two, at Leicester. And five pound was no good to me, so I said, I'm not taking it, what can I buy with five pound now? Look at the price of stuff, see, as time goes on things are worse in a way. And - so I said, but - you get the things, take that five pounds off a quarter, what she needs I'll - pay you so much a week, 'cos I had other children. 'Cos she was my eighth child see. 'Cos I lost one and - so I had the others to look after so - they got everything and I paid them - weekly. She was a big girl and all see and I - I couldn't afford it.
Did you do any part time jobs when you were at school?
Me? My mother wouldn't let me. No. No.
Did any of your brothers and sisters earn money like that?
No. No. Anything we did we did for our mother indoors, she wouldn't let us -earn no money like that. She'd say, plenty of time for that when you've got to work. She did all the work.
What was your first full time job?
My first full time - when I - well my father wouldn't let me go to work before I was nearly sixteen. I remember him saying to my mother - as she's the last one and she'll stop at home and help you. And I stayed home with my mother and - in this last house, and - I helped her - not with washing, she used to do a lot of washing then, and she used to put them all on the - we - on the - we used to have a lot of pictures, they did them days round, she'd say, we'll have new pictures tonight. And - she was happy, and - I used to do all the housework and that, the windows every week and - and - my father wouldn't let me go to work.
Did you mind?
Well I wanted to go to work but - yes, he - he wouldn't let me. He said, no, you're the last one - and of course my sister got married and I was the only one at home, and I used to help my mother. Then I - went out to work at sixteen.
What did you do then?
Well, I - I started in - Mile End Road in a laundry, three shillings a week. My children laugh at me when I tell them, they said, three shilling? I said, yes. And - opposite what used to be the - what's Queen Mary's College now, I started there and - I used to take the money home to my mother. I used to get threepence pocket money. And - well - buy fish and chips for a penny. Hapenny piece and a ha'porth. Yes. If you paid threepence for a bit fish you was - well off. We couldn't do that. And - we lived better then than we do really now because there was more -nourishment in the food. And - I - used to give me this threepence pocket money and and after - I used to be on big crown irons you know with a - pipes on - and a - back breaking job and used to do the back and the fronts. And then - put 'em on a thing for the other girls with small irons, who earned more money, they had - you - like the irons in the - inside, you turn 'em down, they get too hot, they had little pipes on. Well a lot of - after a while I got sixpenny rise. I give it to my mother, she give me extra threepence, sixpence pocket money I had. And - well then I was there - a while and - so they - one of the girls on the small irons left and took her place. So my money went up ten shillings a week, 'cos - see, we finish the shirts off then. After them on the crown irons done 'em, we finished em off and had to fold 'em up and - put 'em out in the airing - room, but they had to be inspected first with the chargehand and - there was speck on 'em, throw 'em out, done 'em - do all over again, yes. And we worked - from Monday 'til - Saturday. And I got ten shillings there. Well then I got a bit more pocket money. I always give my mother money, always. And - well then - I heard about another job in Meredith and Drews, the biscuit people, used to be in Shadwell them days, opposite the childrens hospital. And I went there. 'Cos them days you could leave one job, no notice. Go to - I've been two jobs a day. Come back to the first one again. My mother never knew.
How would you get paid for that?
No, we worked weekly, like so much a week. So of course I went to - I didn't say nothing to my mother and - I went over to Meredith and Drews one morning and fourteen and nine a week. Well that was a bit better. So - however - I started there. And - I was there a while and - putting cheese in these cheese biscuits, putting the tops on and putting them in the trays. Some was on the - cheese cakes, putting the - cream and the coconut on. That was different floor. And - so when I come - I worked the end of the week and - I - and I tell my mother I've changed my job. She didn't mind. - I said, for more money. And - however - I got more pocket money, I forget how much. Always - gained. And then I was there a while and - heard about Mann and Crossman's the brewery. They was Mann and Crossman and Bawleyn then. And it's - Watney Mann's now. And - I went there. Got two pound thirteen a week. See I was - out to better myself. And - I worked hard there. And I told my mother and - that's when I start giving her so much a week, then. 'Cos I was getting on. And - I gave her more than half. And then Christmastime we'd have a guinea Christmas box give us, I used to give her that half. I was always fair to her you know. And - I was there 'til I got married. 1920. And - I went back there 'til I was seven months pregnant with my first daughter, that one who died. And - yes, we used to - seven o'clock in the m orning 'til - six at night I think it was. Used to work on the big tank. Ice - at this - icy cold weather and we had no sleeves in our blouses. And our hands used to have to go right down, right up to here, and all chance about empty bottles - broken down the bottom, we had to put our hand - and eight o'clock the - chill had come off the water, after the - we didn't take no notice, our arms used to be all blue with the cold, and we felt the chill about eight o'clock coming- off the water, gradually it get warmer and warmer. And - oh I've done everything up at the brewery. We had to you see and you're on the tank first and they - put you another job and - and - all the way round, you had to do something and - and - put you on these big round machines, putting the empty bottles in, you have to smell the bottles, see if they was oily, put them to one side. Put the broken boxes - all with one pair of hands. Broken boxes somewhere else and - work hard there. And it's all better now up there. And - and that's the - my last job I had there. And then - done labelling. Bottling the quarts and the pints, all different labels. And they put me on that job - just before I left because I was going to give me notice in that week but they come and - spoke me, I was just going to give me notice in, I was seven months pregnant. Oh yes. But -
How did you get the job at the laundry, who got it for you?
How I got it? Well - we used to have to enquire, you never see no advertisements about advertising jobs, and - I - used to - being a laundry I thought to myself, well it's only in Mile End Road, well it's not far from where I lived then. And - I'll go and ask, and they wanted someone. Yes. Yes. None of us earnt much money them days. We didn't know any different you know. I mean the - food was cheap. Had to be. And - you'd get half a loaf for a penny farthing. And - you'd get - ounce of tea and a - I've walked up to Whitechapel many a time in Tejans, used to be the corner of Brady Street, well known firm it was then, and - and went up there because the tea was a bit cheaper. I've had to walk up there and get it for my mother and - you'd get a pennorth of sugar, half a pound - margarine was sixpence a pound in Whitehorse Road and it if it was fourpence I'd get half a pound the extra ha'penny. We had no butter. And - we used to have condensed milk. And - oh we didn't starve. And - meat was cheap. My mother get twopennorth of pork rind and bones. Or a - sixpennorth of pieces of meat all cut off lovely used to be, make a big pot of stew. And - and she'd have these half quart bags of flour. And - used to last us through the week, self-raising and plain. The self-raising flour was a lovely deep yellow bags and the - plain was in white bags. And we had plenty of puddings, you know, like my childrens had, and - that helped to build us up you know, suet puddings, currant puddings, jam - and with jam and all that. And - we didn't starve. No. My mother foraged you know but - we - there was always a bit of food in the cupboard. Something. But - about six pieces of fish we used to get cold for sixpence and - my mother - warm 'em up in the oven and cook a lot of potatoes and - and - we managed. I've done that for my children as well. And -
You said that you worked on Saturday at the laundry?
Used to work Saturday then. Yes.
Did you get a half day during the week?
No. No..
A full six day week?
Well all - Saturday - we done a bit early Saturday, I think about twelve or one o'clock, but - never got time off in the week.
[End of Side 3]
Did you have any paid holidays? At the laundry?
Never had holidays. No. If you had a half day - if you wasn't well you had to tell 'em why. Oh we had no paid holidays. We had to work for what we got. That's what I say, things are much better now than they were then.
If you were ill for a day or two would you get paid?
No. No. No, nothing like that.
Did you think you were paid a fair wage at the laundry?
Wen we never - we never - I mean, we never - we never knew whether anyone got more 'cos when they took me on we - they told me the wage and you had to take it. You see, but - it was up to us to find out as time went on if there was any better jobs going see. Oh yes. Which I did. I remember when I worked there - someone told me to go to Sussex, corner of New Road, and - they used to - that was a big laundry there, and - I went up there one half a day and I - I done the half day's work there and I didn't like it, I come back to me own job, I told you my mother never knew that I thought it'd be more money and it was all - oh it was terrible up there. So - they wanted to know why I wasn't in that afternoon. So I say oh I went about another job but it didn't suit me. So I'm glad to take - keep at this one three shilling - well, ten shillings a week - when I was on the little iron. That was hard work there but - and of course - while I worked there all my fingers opened. Every finger, and - oh, it was like that, oh, quite a while. And - I had to go - my mother made me go to the doctor. But like now it was sore, all red. So the doctor said to me - what do you work at? So I said, laundry. You'll have to give it up, he said. The steam. Does that. He said, you won't be no better. Oh I couldn't - don't know how I worked with 'em. I had to got to work, and - so - I had to give the job up. That's how I found that biscuit - place, and - they gradually healed up bar one, and I had that for months after, but that healed up in the finish. But they was all open, the whole lot. It was due to all the steam, wet shirts, the steam all day and - affected all my - and all them years ago it's never happened, must - he said it was the steam that caused it and they'll never be better. I could hardly use me - hands with 'em. Every finger open, me thumbs and all opened up. Yes, well I had to go to work.
Were there accidents with burning, did people used to burn themselves?
Oh yes. Oh I had a big burn on me arm. I went to turn round one day quick and a girl had - was holding the iron up, this little one. And - she had - stuff come of felt or something, it got stuck on. She said, oh no, I went to turn round - oh was this arm, that's it, and I - I - got it right on me arm. And then I - I slipped with some cocoa one morning in - in the airing room, outside that they had a great big furnace like, all red and thing right up was all red. I slipped and I just caught me arm on that - oh my - I had to go to hospital with that. Very dangerous there. But - I mean - in laundries it's so - better equipment, yes, yes, all different now Yes. Yes. But - that's what my girl wants, ironing machine so she don't do no ironing. Two of 'em want them. Yes. But - it was hard work these days, but, as I say we had to do it.
How did you get on with the other people you worked with?
Oh all right. Very well.
Had you known many of them before?
No. No. All strangers. It's like everywhere else, you have to mix with 'em you know. Quite nice lot. 'Cos as some left you know - they was getting married or or - going to - stop working, so they used to take other girls on and - quite nice we were together. We all agreed.
Did you see much of the man who owned the laundry?
No. Didn't see him at all. We had - used to have men outside working on the big coppers you know and that and - I don't know what they used to do out there, there used to be big coppers, I don't know what it was for but - lot of water boiling and that out there. And they used to keep the - this big thing going where the airing was, all the shirts hanging - only shirts, nothing else. Never see sheets or anything like that, shirt place it was. White shirts and - I - I know one girl there, there was shirt there, she was told the man was going to get married. And she starched all the bottom of it, and made it all stiff at the bottom. Oh we laughed. You know, she found out who the shirt belonged to, I don't know who it was. Yes. Oh they use to do them tricks you know, I'd say, oh don't do that. Well, she said, he's going to get married, I'll - give him something to remember.
Who would have their shirts laundered then, what sort of people?
Well I suppose - people that were better off than we were, I suppose - but we never knew them. There was always someone better off. Same as them days. They were - but we never knew them.
You can't say you enjoyed doing this work. Did you dislike doing it?
No, I enjoyed all my jobs. Yes. No, I've not disliked any of it.
Were the hours any better at the biscuit factory?
Forget - I think - eight o'clock in the morning - I forget what time we used to finish. That was all right there. Yes.
Were you ever given any of the biscuits to take home?
Not - I know what you mean - no, we - if we want - we could place an order. Place an order, I think it was on the Monday and - you get 'em cheap. Say what you want. I used to say, well what else is there? 'Cos I only knew what was on our floor. Cheese biscuits. And - when we didn't have much work we'd help those on - another floor with the - with the other cheese - cheese cakes. 'Cos I used to be on the biscuits, used to put that - spread that cheese in, put the tops on. Then they used to go somewhere, be wrapped up in paper like the pubs have em, you know, I don't know if they have 'em now, little packets - four biscuits I think in a packet. Well we didn't do that, we used to put the cheese. Well then if we - had nothing to do we'd help the others - on the cheese cakes. And - used to be big - great big tubs of - cream. And - I used to watch the girls, they used to show me how to just dip it in, and then put it in something else, all the ice - coconut. And then they put them on a tray. Well we used to help them - do that see. Well than, this order, and I used to say what else is there? Well - whatever cakes there were there - 'cos I didn't go on the other floors, I didn't know what they were doing - we'd - I forget how much we paid for that. We'd say how much we wanted it and - didn't come to much, about two or three shillings, and we'd have it stopped out of our money - at the end of the week, yes. And I used to bring 'em home and - oh I never took anything. No, 'cos you got to be care - my mother, oh my God. She wouldn't have nothing like that, my mother. No, she knew I paid for 'em. But you place an order you see.
But they were cheaper than you'd buy in the shops?
Oh yes. That's why we had the chance seem we had to say what we wanted. It wasn't a lot - about a couple - couple of things, each things, whatever they had there, I forget what they were now, and - it all be done up for us and - stopped out of our money. And - oh cheaper than what you bought in the shop. Like now they get cheap if they're working on these things don't they at big factories. They place an order in and - get a bit cheaper.
Was this biscuit factory quite clean?
Oh yes. Yes. Lovely and clean, yes. Yes.
Were you given overalls to wear, - were you provided with anything like this?
No. We used to have our pinafores, not overalls provided then. No. We had to - our own pinafores - we used to take.
What were the hours at Mann's brewery?
They was - seven in the morning 'til I think it was - six o'clock at night I think it was. Long hours. But we never knew anything else. Everyone went at work long hours them days. Then there was Saturday - if they were slack - we'd go in 'til twelve, and - clear up you know, see to all the machines. Using them all the week. See to them. Like clean 'em down. 'Cos we had like mechanics up there, if they broke, and - and - we pulled the boxes all straight, the broken ones were by themselves or take 'em outside on the - these trolleys, go along on the wheels, and take 'em out the way and - we used to - one'd get the hose, well - we'd help hose the place down, clear, have everything spick and span - for Monday morning to start again. But if we were busy - we couldn't do that. We had to work see 'til twelve. All depended, see. And - oh used to - do everything you know. They taught you everything there. So - so as if anyone was out sick we could take their place, ~ knew what to do you see.
You didn't see the owner of the brewery at all?
Oh there was a lot of owners, a lot of owners up there - then. Lot of owners up there then - oh a lot of - lot - men came round, you didn't know who they were. And - you could see that they was in partnership I suppose, and - they got so many wards in London Hospital, that brewery, 'cos I know - still got Pawleyne ward and Corssman ward up there and Manns and there - they was for us them wards then. Then if we had an accident. And - I know one day a girl dropped - she was larking about, she dropped a bottle on me - finger, I don't know which finger, it took a lump out of me finger an they took me up there, it was only right near the hospital the brewery is, and - they - they see to it and they stitched it, but - they took me in Pawleyne Ward and - a little room there, but you could see the beds, they were there for the brewery workers should they have an accident. But now - other people's in 'em now but they're still called that same name. And - I know someone - been in Pawleyne Ward, she didn't work at the brewery but they're used for other people now but they still keep the name. But them days there wasn't so many people ill - and needed all them beds like they are now. I know - they was kept for the workers, the men or women. Lot of men worked up there. And - yes, I liked working up there as well. But - I went back there twenty-seven years after I was married. But I couldn't do the work. They put me on the wheel. And I'd had a family. And - I heard they wanted someone up there and I went up and there was another chargehand there, and - there was a girl on this wheel, and - I mean, twenty-seven years made a difference to me, and - I was there about half an hour, all of sudden she called this girl away. So I thought, she's coming back, but she never. So - in the evening I says to this Emmy, I said, where's that girl gone? So she said - oh she's gone another job. So she said, you been - you worked here before, Mrs --? So I said, yes. So she said, I thought so. I said, how do you know? She said, I've been watching you, she said - you didn't seem me, the way you handled them bottles. You picked four up a time you see. You smell 'em and - no, and we were - like this all day long. 'Course - guess how my body was. Like this. And - you mustn't let no holes go by. There's about a dozen or more. And it's full of holes don't you know, and - you've got to keep 'em going. And - so - on the tank where I used to work when I was single there was three or four young girls there larking about. They didn't work like we used to work. And - so of course when she says she'd been watching me, I said, look Emmy, I can't keep this going on my own. So I said, you'll have to get me help. I said, I've had a family since, so - she didn't - of course one morning - these girls larking about, didn't care about their work - and I put a oily in for - and I let some holes go by. So one come round, she's about sixteen, so she said, here lady, she said - you put oily bottle in the machine. So I says, so what? So she said - you know of Emmy - knows that, she says, she'll give you three days off for her convenience. I said, oh will she? As well as she can give me three days I'll take three days for home convenience I said, besides you carry on there and mind your own business, you do your work. I worked on there twenty-seven years ago, before you were thought of. I said, and we worked - them days. And earlier and all in the morning. I said, so don't you come round talking to me like that, I said. So she didn't say no more. And - so I kept it going, I stayed there seven weeks. And I fell ill. And - I couldn't do the work, it was no use, that big wheel. I did when I was single. Yes. And I still had to put the - and you have to put the crates on the - rollers, keep on the move at the side, broken ones were put over there, and - and when I was single we used to have the men put all the bottles, crates of bottles behind you, and as you go further back they put more near you. But not when I went back, they didn't do that, I had longer walk - j ourney, picking 'em up, putting 'em in the wheel, putting - sorting the bottle - the broken boxes, and - so of course they used to go in the toilet and have their beer, the men, used to get drunk. We daresn't have any. We used to get a lovely dinner there for eight pence up in the canteen. When I was single. When I was single, yes. Eight - eight pence dinners. Beautiful. Yes. And - they used to take a - drink of beer, but I never 'cos - I never did care for drink.
You were allowed to drink some beer if you fancied it were you?
Only if you - if you're not caught. Instant dismissal. If they catch you - but the men - they knew the men drank,
and yet the men used to - be allowed to take home so many quarts. A night. And - some of the girls
used to take it home but I shut me eyes, nothing to do with me, I never got in trouble. Let them do what they like.
But I daresn't take any home to my mother, no fear. Oh she wouldn't tolerate that. She used to like to
buy her own, threeha'pence a pint if she needed it. And - however I - I fell ill and - and I says to my daughter who's
in America now I said, I can't go back there. So - the following week I was to go up for me cards, they
wouldn't give 'em to her. So she - Emmy said - the chargehand she said, oh your mum's got the 'flu. She said,mum's not
got the 'flu, it's this hard work here. She couldn't - 'cos all over me body like this all day and -
Saturday and all, oh my God. Well seven weeks I mean I was never lazy but I couldn't do it, I couldn't hold up.
So however - time went on and I sent her back and I - with a note to say that if - they she don't hand my cards
in - I'm going somewhere about it. She give 'em to her. 'Cos they're supposed to hand 'em in to the - yes, I got them,
yes, and - oh I couldn't go back there again, and -it was - the work was the same if you know what mean
but - I was older. Twenty-seven years older and had a family, I couldn't do it. And of course the money - I forget what
the money was, it was a lot more. Oh yes five or six pound a week or something. But I couldn't -
do the work then, it was and I - she wouldn't give me a - easier job because she see - I could do that well. But I couldn't k
eep it going, it was impossible, not all the time. Seven weeks was enough for me. There.
[...]
When you started work do you think it changed your attitude towards your parents?
No.
Were you able to do more things and go out more or anything?
I used to go out - a bit more you know, as I got older. My mother - let me go out with a girl friend you know. Until we started courting. But my husband I knew from a child. And - I fell in the cart with marrying him but still, it's a gamble you have to take you know how they change. Yes, I knew him - when I went to live with - where his father let us have that one room, well - I lived down there - my mother lived in one of them houses nearby - before she went to this last house. Only a little while. 'Cos we could move where we wanted to them days, move twice in a day if you wanted to, my mother-in-law did. That's - I wasn't married, but she used to tell me. Yes, I knew my husband and - his mother lived in the - many years in this house where I went to live when I got married. And - he used to come down - and this last house my mother had - where we lived 'till I got married - well, he - he - he used to come down that street - or the street playing a tin whistle, getting a couple of coppers. And - his mum only had two boys, my husband was the eldest one, and he had a younger brother, and - he used to get a couple of coppers, and - and - used to come out fairly early and - I used to see him walking with his dad and then his father'd go home and - get something for his breakfast so as he could go to school. That's just how it was, him and his brother. And of course I got to know my husband from a child you know, child. And - as time went on I was working - so I went to - could - could never get rid of him you know. As you get older. He was about seventeen months older than me And - I'd go - used to be a fair in - Mile End Road. We used to call it the fair or - pictures and - all roundabouts and all, used to be a girl - two girls come out, Daisy and - oh I forget the other one's name, come out twice nightly and dance on the stage outside, we'd all gather round watching. And everywhere I went I'd look round, he'd be behind me. Yes. And - and then perhaps I'd - go and queue up for the pictures, get an hour and a quarter for a penny, Charlie Chaplin's films, all - silent films. And - I'd - queue up, and I'd forget all about him. He'd be behind me. He'd get to the - pay box before me, put my penny down. And then - I wouldn't talk to him, and - we'd come out and I'd be with a girlfriend and - I use to say to 'em, before I go home I'm going to the fish shop in the same street, E-Street, get a big piece and a ha'porth, lovely. I'd go in there, when it got my turn, you know, we never queued up, we'd just go in and - get served and - might be one or two in there. And - as I put my money down someone'd put the money down before me, and I knew it was him behind - honest. Oh I had that ages, it seems I had to have him. Lovely fellow. And - and then - of a Saturday might be going there, he'd say, don't you take no money for the lady, he'd say - I'll pay for that, he'd get me a threepenny bit and a pennorth. Big lovely lump of fish. I'd get the threepence. I'd say, thanks, and I'd walk off, I couldn't stand him.
You didn't talk to him?
Couldn't stand him, no. I couldn't stand him. Well after a while - he disappeared. His mother - still lived there.
And I never went round to her. She didn't know - she was blind you know, dear old soul she was, and
his father was - almost blind. And - she never knew me so - he disappeared. As time went on - someone told me that he -
joined the Army, and - he went to Ireland. And - he came home a couple of times, I dodged him, I
see him in a green - uniform. Got a lovely fellow, he had very fair ginger hair, that's how my children's ginger
some of 'em. And - big built fellow. And I dodged out of his way. Well then - he must have gone back. I
heard he was killed. So - I was sorry you know, treating him like I did. I wouldn't have nothing to do with him.
Of course - as time went on - my mother belonged to a loan club in Roma Road and I used to walk down
there, it was a long walk but we didn't notice it, me and this girl friend, I went round to her one Monday night and -
it was every Monday I had to take it, and - this Jessie said, come in. So I always went in. I don't know
why but I said, no I don't want to come in. So I stood there waiting for her to get ready and I were like this and all
of a sudden I see two fellows coming up in the road, one was a sailor and the other was in khaki. Long
trousers, he used to ride - horse ride - horse ride - horse back ride, he used to wear the breeches sometimes with 'em.
He was very smart. So - got nearer. I said, oh hello Ian. 'Cos I heard he got killed. So - oh he was
smashing. I know - he had his eyes was on me. Funny how I didn't go in that house that Monday night. It wasn't dark.
They come right over to me, he said, hello. So he shook hands, so I - began to like him, I don't
know why, you know, to know that he was alive. So - he said, you going out anywhere. I said, yes, I'm going to
Roma Road. I shouldn't have told him. I'm going to Roma Road , pay my mum's club - it was only a
shilling a week - loan money. So he said, can I come with you? So I said, if you like. So however, he said something
to this fellow. I said, no you go with him. So he said, no. So this fellow went, this sailor. And -
this Jessie came out and - he walked down there with me. Wasn't half smart. Of course - he was home for a few weeks,
so - oh I said, I didn't expect to see you any more. So he said, I know what you heard, he said, I
was killed. So - he said, I heard all about that, he said, but I'm very much alive, so anyway he come down there with
me and - well then I worked at the brewery. He asked me where I worked. So he said, I'll come
round in the morning, take - take you to work. This went on for about three or four weeks you know.
And - come round on morning, my mother used to shout down, who's that? Oh it's only a friend of mine.
So - I used
to take a cup of tea up, wouldn't tell her it was a fellow. And - anyway - he got a cup quick and we'd go to work
and - he'd come and meet me in the evening and - just before we finished off the girls used to look out as
though they had someone to wait for 'em. And they come in - they'd say, 'ere, ain't half a smashing fellow out there,
I wonder who he's waiting for. Well I thought to myself oh my God. I never said nothing. They never
asked me. So - anyway, oh what's - who went out with - it was me. And he'd shake hands and kiss me as though -
of course I'd known all them years but I didn't get - didn't go with him long. And - oh we used to go
for walks and that, very nice you know but - had a - he was a lady's man. He used to work for the officers you know
and - officers batman and - go about with officers dances and that, he was very gay. 'Cos he was lovely
looking you know. And - a lot of my children take after him you know, big built and that. And - as time went on I
wished one of 'em had had him. I had a bit of a life with him, but that was the only thing - women you
know, I had two separations. But - when he died I was away from him for seventeen years, but he -
[End of Side 4]
So you were engaged for quite a long time?
Well to tell you the truth he sent me the money home to buy the ring, 'cos from Silonica you know - and - I forget
how long we was engaged,. Decided to get married when he come home. I couldn't get out of it. Oh but
often sit and think you know. And I suppose it still happens in some cases - now.
[...]
I only had one - one girlfriend, I had her, she was like a sister, lived opposite my mother. And - I never had a proper friend after that, when she - she lived - a good many years but - I say courting you know, that parted us. I was the start first one to start courting and - she met her husband - after that and - he turned out worse than mine. And she lived - she worked over - Charrington's brewery. She lived a good many years, I used to meet her and - have a chat with her and - and she went in bad health and she - died. But she was the only really friend I did have when I was young you know, before I - while I was at work.
Did you go to her house and would she come to yours?
Yes, she - she'd sleep with me in my house one weekend and I'd - I'd go and sleep with her. She was a nice girl. She was the only true friend I - we was more like sisters you know. My sister used to go out 'cos she - had a young man, who she married, and - so I had this - girl in my house and I'd go in her place. But - just for to keep one another company. And her mother was like my mother, worked hard when she was alive. All had to work hard.
What would you two do together?
Oh - oh we'd go perhaps - cinema, well we used to call 'em pictures then, not cinemas. We'd go there and - or we'd go up the theatre. Tuppence. Up - used to get the - what's the A.B.C Cinema in Mile End Road now, it was the Paragon. And we'd go there. Or the Forresters in - Cambridge Heath Road. Or the Pavilion up - in Whitechapel. Used to be there, opposite Whitechapel church, go up there. Yes, we'd go up in the gallery for tuppence, tupenny rush, up the stairs. And yet there was never any trouble. Boys and girls they all used to go - a lot of 'em we never knew, we kept ourself to ourself. But there was never any trouble.
No gangs?
No. Well there was no trouble if there was so - perhaps you'd see three or four fellows together but you wouldn't see any fights or that like you would now, no. No-one interfered with us. No.
They didn' t have as much money as young people have today did they?
Yes. Don't know the value of money. As for pocket money, we - we never - my children never had pocket money - like my grandchildren get now. They all get pocket money. But - I don't know - and yet, we grew up better. And my children. With less money. That's the trouble.
Would your parents expect to know where you were if you went out?
Oh yes, my mother knew - wanted to know where I'd been, yes. I daresn't be out late, but you know what, you're asking me that, do you know right - right to the time - right 'til I got married I wasn't allowed - allowed out after ten o'clock. That is true. My children laughed at me when I told 'em, I wouldn't let them out too late, but - they have been out later than that. Ten o'clock, and - we was courting and my - and my dad died, and - my mother was more after me than when he - 'cos he was nice, my dad. And they - he passed away and of course them days we used to keep in - back six months, and then go in half mourning for another six months. Yes, a twelve month. And - we went - used to be - a theatre, the corner of here, Stainsby Road in the main - main road, and - we called the Princes Theatre, and - we always went first house to be home - before ten. So one night my husband said, oh, now, come second house. Oh, I said, no, my mother - kill me. However - took a chance. I was twenty-three when I got married. But I tell you I was twenty-odd when it happened. And we went there. And I could see ourself now - we come out, nearly eleven o'clock. So - we run right along Burdett Road, wouldn't wait for a - bus. I said, my mother'll kill me, I was nearly crying. A young woman. Got home. My mother's waiting behind the door for me. As I - as she's opened the door - my husband happened to stand at the corner, he knew how frightened I was. She got hold of my hair, she has, pulled me in road and half beat me. My mother. I was late. The God's truth. But I - 'course I - being me mother I couldn't hit her back. We respected our mother. We daresn't answer back, never mind anything else. It was only 'cos - I never had a father. 'Cos it would never have happened if my father -wouldn't let her - you know, he'd say, leave her be, but he - so - anyway my husband run down and he - pulled me away from her, he said, leave her alone, he said. She' nearly twenty-two, he said, she's allowed to be out. Not while she's here she's not, and, she said, you mind your own business. She said - she's not going to be out after ten o'clock, not while she's at home with me. She was good mother, but - she was strict. - However - I got married at twenty-three.
Did your father like your future husband? Did your mother like him? I mean - he, no, he didn't meet him a lot, but - my father liked his mother of a Monday to come round to have dinner with us. 'Cos she was blind, she was - only little. And - I - I worked at the brewery and - I - my mother used to go round for her or someone go round for her, bring her home, every Monday, have dinner. He liked her. And 'cos she was blind and she was very jolly, very - always - laughing she was. And - she had to come round every Monday, have dinner with us. Yes, he like her, but he didn't like his father a lot, my father you know. Was a bit - oh, I don't know - nasty man, but - I got on all right with him when we got married 'til he died, and - so, but his mum, he did like her.
