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Revd. W. Frank B. Place of residence, Banbury. Born, 1889. Final occupation, vicar.

Can you tell me the house where you were born?

I was born in Lichborough Rectory, in Northamptonshire.

That was 1892?

1889.

How many years did you live there?

We lived there about - five years.

And then where did you go to?

Then we went to Norfolk Island. The whole family went to Norfolk Island. And my father - he went off to the Solomon Islands. In the - mission ship the Southern Cross. And he -

How long were you abroad?

We were abroad then in my childhood seven years.

When you came back where did you come back to?

We back to - stay at first at Windsor, with my grandmother and then went to Lichborough, Northamptonshire.

Back again to the rectory?

Yes. And then - my father got a place in - Waltham St Laurence in Berkshire. He was assistant curate there - and that little church to look after.

How old was your father when you were born, do you remember?

I think he was thirty-four. Yes.

Where did he come from?

He came from Stoke Mandeville. A place by here, yes.

How old was your mother when you were born?

She was - twenty-seven. Yes.

Where did she come from?

She came from - Worcestershire. That was her home. Near Birmingham.

And you thought her people were in industry?

I thought - they were, but I never heard much about it but - her father and mother had a - huge sort of - estate, a lot of - animals and - lot of servants, they're very rich I think. Mm.

Can you describe to me the house where you were born and lived for five years?

Yes.

How big was it, how many rooms did it have?

The - it had twenty-one rooms as far as I remember. Yes.

What did it look like?

A big - you know, like a big - I don't know what it looked like.

What were those rooms, can you tell me?

There was - the - lavatory, then there was the - study. Little room facing south. Then there was the - dining room, big - high room, facing south. And then the drawing room. And - then - store cupboard. Then a kitchen. Then a scullery. And then - up the other way, coming from - north to south there was - I think that was all, yes. Then upstairs there was -

Did the staff have a sitting room at all?

No, no.

They where in the kitchen?

No, they just relegated to the kitchen. And lived up in the attics. And - the bedrooms were - east to west - there's one bedroom for - us boys when we stayed there later, there's - father's and mother's room. Big bedroom. Then there's a spare bedroom. They'd all got single beds as far as I remember or nearly - all then there were - two or three small bedrooms. One was converted into a bathroom. That was all I can remember I think.

And then attics upstairs?

Yes. Top floor, there were several rooms up there. Three attics I remember, quite a - quite big rooms, and children - used to play in them. Mm.

You just had one brother didn't you?

Yes, just one brother.

Do you know if your mother ever did any work before she married?

I shouldn't - well - her mother died when she was only eleven, and - she was dissipated among - relations, and she spent - I think most of her time with her - her crusty old grandmother. But -

How did she meet your father, do you know?

She first met him - when she was jumping across Brackley bridge, Brackley - stream I mean. Yes.

Did he catch her?

Just down - close by here, he saw her there and said - who's is that girl jumping that stream? They said - that's one of the Phelpston's, that was her family. And - but - she - she was then living at Westbury, not far from here. That's the first time. Then he didn't see her again 'til - she was - living - at that time at Wheatley near Oxford. And he went - take the services there. And - her three sisters there, and he - and he - chose her you see as the best looking. As she certainly was. And - then they got married in 1887, then took this family living Lichborough.

It was in your father's family?

Yes. Yes.

Did he take it over from your grandfather?

Yes. He took it over from grandfather, who - bought the living I think, or had it somehow from - Lady Knightly Forsley - not far from here either, near Preston Capes it is.

Another big house was it?

No. Which house?

The Lichborough?

Oh that was - yes, that was the biggest house, yes, that's the twenty-one-roomed house. Counting all sorts of little - odds and ends of rooms that is I can't remember each one but I did count them but -

What sort of staff did you have, can you remember?

Oh I can't tell, there was - there was always a gardener there and a gardener's boy, and - there was a - an indoor girl - maid, called the twenty whatever that was. And -

Cook did you have?

Yes, we had a cook I think,

Did you have a nursemaid?

Yes, we had a - girl, village girl called Jenny West - for a nursemaid, But when we - departed and went out to Norfolk Island - they found a girl from - had lost her parents or been - separated from them I think, and she came out with us.

How old was she?

She was - she died at the age of ninety-seven about - two years ago. I think she was about - eighteen or so when she came with us.

Did you like her?

Yes, we - yes, yes, we liked her very much. Yes.

Can you remember the domestic routine in your time at Lichborough, did you have anybody else staying in the house, any relatives?

I - can't remember much, I was only three - under three when I left. I can't remember anybody staying in the house. I can hardly remember - anyone about the place at all. Except in a very dim way.

Do you remember the upping and going?

No.

Do you remember the actual move?

No, I don't, no. No, I don't. Didn't seem to leave any impression on me I remembered - very silly little - incidents.

Can you tell me some?

Such as - looking out and seeing the snow in one of the cold winters of the early 1890's, and seeing squirrels running about. Hearing wolves and that sort of thing, I can't remember anything at all important.

Little incidents are important?

I suppose they seem important, yes.

They're quite important to us too,

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Can you remember much - of the time abroad?

I can remember all that, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

What sort of schooling did you have?

Oh we - at home - we had a little bit of schooling, then there's a - mission they had a New Zealander, called Miss Farr - who used to - take us, run a little school there, only about - three or four - white children in the place, oh yes, sometimes - do sums or something of that sort of thing with the - black people and - and -

Did you play with them?

Oh rather, yes, I think so.

You weren't kept apart?

No. No, went all over the place with them. Ran races with them, they always won though. Mm.

What sort of life was it there?

Oh it's a lovely life there.

Was there any luxury about it, did you live grandly?

No, didn't have any - no luxuries. No. Horrible - meals - in the middle of the day. Yes. Just meat and -, sweet potatoes, I believe we have them in England now. And - most of our meals were out on the veranda which was nice. In the open air. Used to drink a lot of milk, it was a thin - took a - about four big mugfulls to - to nourish one. Mm. And sometimes had cold meat - in the evening.

Was your mother happy there?

Oh she was very happy, yes. Oh goodness yes.

Did she have to work to help your father?

I don't think so. No, we had a half dozen girls in the house. Native girls. And - we were great friends with them.

Did your father like it?

Oh yes. Yes. It was - there's a lot of separation at - had to go off for eight months in the year - to be a missionary in the -

Was that going into the darkest bits?

Into the - into the isle - heathen islands.

You weren't taken along?

No, no, no.

Was it thought to be dangerous?

Oh yes. Yes, they wouldn't take a child there. But the - Presbyterian missionaries had children out in those parts - in - slightly cooler parts - New Hebrides, Southern Islands, yes. But - and no ladies were supposed to go there at all. And - one missionary married - a local Norfolk Island lady, Miss Rossiter, English in race, and - she died as soon as she got there, with -

A disease of something?

No - the - silly people they started having a family, and - on their - being rocked about on the ship - that woman get a child - get - that she -

I suppose there were no medical facilities?

Yes, he was a doctor, so - yes. So he -

But he couldn't save her?

He couldn't save her life. It - the - the child killed her, poor thing, she was buried out there, and - then of course after that they said, well for some time they said well - that's evidence that no lady can - and a married lady - well they wouldn't have any women at all out there - for a few years. Then - the Bishop got married, but he didn't attempt to take his wife - into the - heathen parts. Mm.

What sort of heathen were they, they weren't head-hunters were they?

They were head-hunters, yes, and cannibals, yes, oh yes.

Did your father tell stories of them when he came back?

Yes, yes, father wasn't in quite such a - bad place, it was - supposed to be main - mainly Christian where - father was. But - they were raided sometimes, I think by - head hunters. It was - a game they had - to get as many heads as they could and hang them up in their huts, yes.

Was your mother worried about him?

Oh well yes, a little bit I suppose. Very very thankful when he came - came back. They - used to wonder whether - whether we'd see him again each time he went. Mm. That was very - rough then. They knew nothing about medicine, medical things, and what's the cause of malarial fever, they didn't know that. But they knew that quinine should be used for it. But that's about all.

Did you get ill, your family at all?

Oh no, we didn't get ill, no. Don't think so, just had measles once but - no, we didn't get - really ill. And - it was primitive, a primitive sort of life, we ran about barefooted. Got - bad feet, stone bruises, they call them. But we didn't get to be ill.

When you came back which year was that?

That was 1899. March.

Do you remember the coming back?

Yes, I remember that, yes.

Can you tell me about it?

Mm. We had a dreadful - well we were - whisked off in the early morning so we couldn't see all the weeping - native girls all round, must have - been a - a tragic affair.

They were sad to see you go were they?

Oh yes, they were sad indeed.

Was it the end of your father's term there?

'Twas the end of his term, he had to stay seven years at a time. That was the end of - one - period, and he - went home expecting to go back again. And -

So you left in the early morning?

Yes. Yes. Before anyone was up. And drove away in the two - morning twilight.

Were you sad or excited?

Frightfully sad. Mm hm. Yes.

How about your mother?

Oh she was sad too, she hoped to come back. But they loved the place there, people. And they - she had plenty to do there. Had these six girls to look after and - and - bandage them and wash their sores, which they keep getting all the time. I think we all did.

It must have taken quite a long time to come back?

Yes. Well - it's all by sea of course, by - three months I think usually. Yes. It was about - I think about forty-two days, that's about six weeks isn't it, from Melbourne - Australia, they had to get to Melbourne - first. Got a - we got a ship at Sidney, three thousand tons she was. Half sailing and half steam.

Did you like the journey?

Yes. Oh yes. Yes, it was - lovely - a nice journey, I think we soon forgot all - our regrets. Yes. I think so.

What were your feelings when you arrived, do you remember?

Well -

Did it seem strange to you, the life?

Happy for a time, certainly. Yes, it all seemed strange in England. Seemed awful big - going to school at first - and English children seemed very strange things indeed, didn't like them at all. No. Oh I daresay I liked some of them, but I didn't like being at school much. Well we had had - all on our own the time we were - we were out there.

And a lot of freedom?

Lot of freedom, yes, we'd had freedom and - they were rather worshipped and looked to 'cos here we're just - knocked about. And - yes.

When you settled down again and your father got the assistant curate you said didn't you?

Yes, he - was an assistant at - Waltham St Lawrence in Berkshire. We liked that place very much. Had a year there. Then he - went to Bromhall outside Bedford. Stayed there for twenty-five years. Mm.

That would be the place you lived at most of the time?

Longest time was Bromwell near Bedford.

Did you again have staff in the house?

Yes, we - had about - two maids usually, in the house, and the gardener in the garden.

Did your mother do any work in the house?

Oh yes, she - well a lot of supervising the maids I suppose but - she used to do the cooking herself - I think. It was mainly looking after - the girls, her housework was. Girls about - thirteen or fourteen, fifteen or so. Yes.

Did they come in from the village?

They came in from - from - my birthplace, most of them at first, Northamptonshire, yes.

And they lived in?

Yes.

All of them?

Then afterwards - after a year or two it began - getting - to know the village girls and they came. At one stage - think it was eleven years. Yes, they stayed quite a long time, most of - or more. They used to get very faithful. Yes.

Was yours a happy household?

Yes, oh yes, was - a very - very happy.

Your mother and father got on well together did they?

My goodness yes. Mm.

Did father help at all in the house?

No. He couldn't - he couldn't do anything, no.

He was there of course most of the time?

Yes, yes, there but - I never saw him helping in the house.

Did you boys help in the house at all?

No, well they wouldn't let us. We started clearing the table, they said, that's not your job. And we wanted to help sometimes but - we weren't encouraged to.

Which school did you go to?

Went to - St Briglodge in Kent first.

This was away at school?

Yes, to prep school. And -

Did you ever attend a day school when you came back?

No. No, no, not that, no. Then I went to St Edwards School, Oxford, and - where another - Norfolk Island - white boy had been. Yes. And that's the only school I know.

When you were at home was the discipline fairly strict, did you have to go to bed at certain times, and meal times?

Oh yes, yes, we - got up at seven - half past seven. Yes.

In bed at what time?

Bed at - oh nine I should think. Half past eight was it. Half past eight I seem to think, yes. Yes.

Did you have help in going to bed or did you put yourselves to bed, you boys.

In England we put ourselves to bed.

But abroad you'd had help?

Yes. We were bathed every night and - and - put to bed. Oh yes, we had - had a nursemaid do this there. Mother used to bath us and - tuck us up.

Mother looked after you quite a lot did she?

Yes, yes she did.

She didn't leave you to the nursemaid?

No, not such a great deal. Looked after my - younger brother more than - myself, I was always - pretty much on my own. Yes.

Were you independent sort of person?

Yes.

Did you share a bedroom with your brother?

No, no. I had a bedroom of my own. And - wretched girls - all night they were learning their collects for next Sunday. And instead of saying - saying them all together they were - they were all saying different parts at the same time, learn - learning different bits, and - they spent the rest of the time singing endless psalms, hymns, psalms, anything they could think of.

These were the native girls were they?

Yes.

They liked doing that did they?

Yes.

Or did they have to do it?

Oh they liked doing that. They wouldn't be quiet 'til about eleven. Well I don't know when it was, it was - it kept me awake. I - rebelled against it but - I was told I had to put up with it. The rats would come out and run around the room that I was all alone with.

Rats?

Yes. It was awful. That part was the worst. And that seemed like a long dark tunnel. My brother slept with the parents all the time. Mm. In their room.

Did you tell your parents you were frightened?

No, I don't think so, but I told them I - didn't like the girls singing. Their singing wasn't very musical - so it was - not very beautiful.

You were expected to be a bit tough were you?

Yes. Mm.

It was quite strange for a little boy?

- Yes, it was,

Did you have a bathroom there?

Oh - no, there wasn't a bathroom, had a - had a bath in the bedroom. Yes.

When you were back in England by then there were bathrooms in the big houses?

Yes - the - primitive sort of things when we first arrived in England.

What was that?

Well it was - one of those tin things, the - they used to have - they used to wear end and get rust didn't we, they put a - quite a nice bath into the room, and - divided it off so that other people could come in - when they wanted a bath. It was in our bedroom, we had the - hot water cistern in the bedroom. And we were awfully grateful for that. Always had a warm room. Never went to bed with cold feet.

Can we talk a bit about mealtimes this is now back in England?

Mm. Mm.

Where did you have - where did the family eat their meals?

Eat their meals in the dining room. Yes.

Always?

Yes.

You presumably had tea in the drawing room would you?

Well not every not often.

Where would tea be had?

In the - in the dining room. Usually, yes.

Did you and your brother have meals at the same time as your parents?

In - in England I think we did. Yes. Not at Norfolk Island. When we were - when I was about - ten or so we began having - yes, had all the meals together. Breakfast half past eight, lunch at one. Tea at four thirty and supper at seven thirty. It was quite regular because we - had the maid to do things, and the cook.

What sort of things did you have for breakfast?

Oh always porridge, it was - heated up on the stove all night. And - oh the ordinary things. Fish or - bacon or anything of that sort. Then father became vegetarian. When I was about sixteen. And mother wouldn't - change over but we two boys would. So we never had any meat after that at home. Not much anywhere else for that matter, no.

But mother wouldn't change?

Mother wouldn't change, no. But then - we lost her you see, she - she got typhoid fever and was - called home. Yes. We were only in England about seven years and then she was - she left us. Mm, it was sad because we - I suppose if - father and mother had gone back - to their work - at the other side of the world, missionary work, I suppose she wouldn't have got typhoid fever, 'cos I don't think there was any - strange to say. Yes. I - I never heard of any - not sure, there may have been some but I didn't hear - never heard of any on Norfolk Island where we lived. Presumably she wouldn't have got it. There were no drains and that.

Going back to eating and drinking, what did you have to drink in your family at meals?

Oh, just -

What did you have to drink at breakfast time?

Oh we just had coffee at breakfast and - water at - dinner, and then these cups of tea.

And supper?

Supper we had cocoa, that was the rule.

Did you have wine?

No, never had wine, no. There was a Band of Hope and their temperance society and teetotal. We were all teetotallers and we - everybody was - keen on teetotalism, at least - ninety percent of the village - of the men were drunk - every Saturday night and so we - we practically had to set an example - to them, so we all - were expected to sign the pledge which we all did. So I always kept it 'til I went out to France in the war. Mm.

France was too much for you?

They - they couldn't - well you couldn't explain to them, they thought you were being - uncooperative, disagreeable, if you didn't have their - vin blanc.

The water wasn't much good either was it?

No, the water wasn't much good.

Did mother do any baking things like bread and making jam?

They did at Norfolk Island, we baked bread.

How about behaviour, were you expected to behave well?

Yes, we were expected to behave.

I suppose being in a ministers household you were expected to set an example in all ways?

Yes. Yes, you were, yes. And there was - no staying away from church on Sunday. And - the place was locked up and the key put under the mat and - everybody went, as a matter of course, all the services. Which isn't the way now, I don't find - in this country now that's possible - at all.

Was your father very much the head of the family, did what he say go?

Yes. Yes. Yes, he was. Yes, we he kept us in order. And so did - so did the nurse - the nursemaid, she used to spank us and - order us about.

How about mother, did she have to do what father said?

More or less I think. Yes, I think she did. Don't run, he got rather cross if she didn't - come up to his expectations you know.

Did he have high standards?

Yes, yes, they did, yes. Yes. I remember he was quite - quite - gave her quite a lecture one day when - she didn't come to communion and he thought - she should have. Mm.

Did you ever wish you weren't a minister's son?

Oh no, I don't - don't think so. No. No. The other - parents, they didn't seem as - nearly as good as ours. No, but - I didn't like the look of any of the other - parents who came up to - school to see their boys. No, dreadful looking - people. No, I don't - wouldn't have changed for anyone.

Do you remember mealtime discipline, were you allowed to talk during meals?

Oh yes. Yes. Yes, at school we - there's - boys used to bring in - book to look - look at, and read, they didn't talk very much. The masters all sat at the - high table. But - oh yes, at home we - we used to talk, mother believed in - lively conversation. Then mother - though mother, she was taken at - 1908, the angels came for her, and - and - father had about twenty-two years - on his own and that. My brother and I - my brother went out to Canada. A year after mother was taken, and - then soon after that I - I had - I went to a parish in the North of England. Must have been a frightfully lonely time for father. Mm. All those twenty-two years.

Do you remember when you were quite small at home your attitude to the servant people in your house, were they kept very much apart?

Apart, yes, they stayed apart, we didn't -

When they ate their meals?

Yes. Yes, they did, yes. Yes, we never - had any - mixing up - that way. Don't think it's very convenient really, that - is the chief reason - I think, don't think they're so awfully snobbish that - some people think they were.

It's just a way of life isn't it?

Yes. It was a way of life which everybody carried out, yes, they mostly -

And they cared for your parents didn't they?

Yes. They must have stayed round the kitchen, and - they slept - and they slept up in the attics but then we - got more liberal ideas after a while. Then they - used any spare bedrooms that were - upstairs.

Was your mother an easy person to talk to?

Oh very yes. Charming person, yes.

Did she show her affection to you?

Oh yes, yes.

She was an affectionate person?

Yes, oh very.

If you had worries would you go to her with them?

Oh goodness, yes, yes.

Or to your father?

Yes. No, to both. Yes.

Father was easy to get on with too?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Did they expect you to behave in a certain way towards them?

Yes - when wri - writing you always to put - dearest - my dearest - father and mother. Mother mustn't come first like she does now. Mm.

What do you call them at home?

Father - always called father and father and - called mother all sorts of things. Metier, which is Greek, and all sorts of funny things. We were more familiar with her of course.

She sounds a very nice person?

Yes, she was.

Did you quarrel with your brother?

Only - only just occasionally, yes. He threw a stone at me once, hit me on the leg. So I -

Did your parents encourage you to be nice to each other?

Yes, suppose so. And so did the native girls at - Norfolk Island. Made us kiss each other.

What kind of people do you think your parents hoped you'd grow up to be?

Well - I went - carried on father's work as - missionary.

Did they want you to be?

Yes, and I wrote to mother and she - said how delighted she was to hear that I was going out to carry on father's work, and - then very soon after that she - was - went into paradise, was called home, and I was - able to - tell her what I was going to do.

Did you in your household do you think more of a kind of moral upbringing than the average child?

Oh, yes, I should think so, I - yes, father was very very - emphatic - yes, his -

What about things like swearing and being rude to people?

Oh we - oh he couldn't do - he couldn't - they were down on anything of that sort.

Were you punished?

Yes. Oh yes.

What sort of punishment did you have?

Oh had a whacking sometimes.

Who administered the whacking?

Father.

Did he use a strap or just his hand?

No. Birch rod. Bare skin. Yes.

Was that often?

No, I only remember it once.

What had you done that once?

I don't know.

What sort of things did you get punished for?

I don't know really. Perhaps telling lies I expect. You know, such as that. In school we used to get - whackings and punishments, I didn't - didn't always know what they were for.

Did you resent them?

Sometimes. Not - not particularly. Certainly punished at least once for something someone else had done.

Would you say that looking back you learned more from your father or from your mother about how to behave toward other people?

Oh - oh

Do you think mother was more of an influence?

Mother - mother I think, yes. Yes, and - certainly in the early days. Yes she was a wonderful person.

And you saw more of her of course?

Yes. Yes, well we - yes, father was away eight months of the year you see.

Whereabouts in Kent was this?

That was - between Hithe and - Sandgate.

How old were you when you went there?

I was - nine when I went there. Yes.

Do you remember discussions about it at home before you went?

Before I went, no, I - I don't think so, no because my uncle was - in charge of it. Yes. Yes, it was his school.

Did he own it or was he the headmaster?

Well, he was - he came from - Stoke Mandeville school. And - married my - aunt, my father's sister. And then when Stoke Mandeville school disbanded, he went down to - Hampshire - to - Wycombe I think, Hampshire at any rate, and - then they got - typhoid fever, and so they moved to the Kent coast. Near Hithe and Sandgate. And - yes, it was - very nice spot.

Did your parents ask you if you wanted to go to boarding school or was it just accepted that you would do anyway?

Oh well, everybody went then didn't they. I think so. Nearly everybody.

Did you want to go, did you look forward to it?

Oh I never thought whether I would - wanted to or not, but yes I did look forward to it. Yes. I was told it was a delightful place to go to. I didn't altogether think so when I got there.

Did you have a uniform do you remember?

Oh no. No. Not at a - small school like that.

How did you feel being at school that was your uncle's, did you have special treatment?

Well I seemed to - get off punishments of all kinds there. It was - his - his wife was my aunt, you see, and - and - and - they'd never hit me or whack me or anything of that sort and -

Did the other boys get whacked?

Yes, they did, terribly.

Was there a lot of whacking?

This man. Mm, Mr - he used to beat them with a hunting whip, and - yes, they had. And -

How old were they when they left there?

They were fourteen usually.

It was a prep school was it?

Yes. Yes.

Were the boys happy there on the whole?

Well - they were very nice boys there and - they didn't have any bullying or - anything in that sort. And - well the headmaster was - down on all that sort of thing.

How many boys were there in the school?

About thirty. Mm. Yes.

What sort of things did they teach you apart from the basic education, were they very insistent on tidiness and punctuality and things like that?

It was - oh - oh yes, yes, mm. Yes, you had to - had to be punctual and - supposed to be tidy. Mm.

And how about ways of speaking and behaving generally?

They wouldn't allow any swearing and - that sort of thing. No. We had to behave well. And - they used to keep an eye on everything, if a boy got - uproarious and wanted to fight anybody - he was - soon reported and - stopped from anything of that sort. So we scored by being - rather strict and - fearsome - in those ways.

Was it in a big house?

It was in one - a fair sized house, With two lodges - fairly large - sleep in dormitories.

How many boys in each dormitory? About fifteen?

About - yes, something like that and - then they - had one or two extra - little rooms and - then they built another - another house to - house more boys in. And then - after I left - still another one - which the partner - it was a partnership ultimately, another headmaster came along, and then - he was younger and he took it over, and they had a - new place. Yes. The old school was - given over to girls. Mm.

Can you remember what - was it particularly church?

No, it wasn't. Well - we used to have - also the chapel. First in the gym, a part of the gym on a platform put up at one end, and then we had little - special chapel made. And - headmaster's wife used to play - but otherwise if we - didn't go to church very often. No, not to a parish church, I don't - I don't exactly know why but - they had a church of their own - mostly. My father didn't think it was quite right. No.

Did it seem strange to you after your very sort of church background?

Mm. Yes. Oh I don't think I worried very much about it. But parents thought it was wrong.

Do you remember when you were taken to school, did your parents take you?

Yes. Yes.

Or did you go by yourself?

No, they - they took us - myself and my brother off to school.

On the train did you go?

Yes, oh yes, there were no cars in those days.

Your brother went at the same time did he?

Brother went at the same time, yes.

So that was nice, you weren't quite so lonely?

No. He stayed there about seven years. Yes. He was seven when he went. Fourteen before he got a scholarship to Eastbourne College. Very good scholarship, sixty pounds, which was enormous in those days.

Was the academic standard good at this little school?

Fairly good, it - wasn't quite - as high as some I think. Well some schools specialise a lot - and - keep in touch with - Eton or some great public school - and get tips about exams, I think. And know exactly what to be - what to do, but no, I shouldn't say it was quite the highest - highest standard. They were rather wealthy boys I think of wealthy parents and I don't think they troubled their heads much about scholarships. Yes, yes, yes.

Can you remember the food you used to have?

The food, well - I didn't like the food - very much, but I don't like meat, I don't eat it now too often. Otherwise it was quite good as - as food went, yes.

Did they make you eat meat?

Yes - brutes they were at that, they - made one eat up all the gristle and everything. Put me opposite the headmaster to see that I did it - no escape. Ghastly.

You had to eat everything did you?

Yes, frightful.

When you were at home did you have to eat up everything?

More or less, not quite so strict as that only - no.

I should think you hated that?

I did detest it.

What did you think of the school, can you remember at the time?

Oh I got - I got to like it I think, especially in the - summertime with - cricket going on.

Did you like games?

I liked cricket; I didn't like football at all. Not - soccer football. No.

Is that what they played there?

Yes. I was very good at cricket. Bowling, that sort of thing. But -

Did your parents come down to see you?

No, they never came near us. No. The whole five years I was there - parents - parents - parents wouldn't come - and pay us a visit.

Why was that?

Well they thought it would upset us. And -

Do you remember ever minding about that?

Oh I don't know. It wasn't - it wasn't much good minding. No.

Did other boy's parents come?

Oh yes, they - all came. I rather wondered why ours didn't. And - we seemed to be right at the - end of England, end of nowhere. The tip of Kent, it - seemed a long way from all our associations and - relations and people. In those days.

Did they go on taking you and fetching you from school?

No, we - made the journey ourselves. They'd sometimes come up as far as - London, or one of them would, usually father, and - then they'd put us in the hands of - commissioners as they called them, and - they were - retired Crimean veterans mostly.

Who were they employed by?

I don't know who they were - employed by, but they - in a sort of uniform, and - they used to come and - meet us at the station and - take us out to lunch somewhere and then - to see the National Gallery. Some nice place.

They weren't employed by the railway then?

No, they weren't, no.

Nor the school?

No, no. No, they came from Chelsea, they - they were - they were Chelsea Pensioners. Mm. All been in the Crimea, they used to tell us about it.

Would they have got paid for that?

Yes, they'd have been paid.

This was a sort of service they did?

Yes. It was a sort of - service, I don't know whether they still do it now, I don't suppose they do. Everybody goes by car.

Did you enjoy that day in London?

Yes. Yes, it was - on the - we were on the verge of getting home.

Did you look forward to the holidays?

I should think we did, yes. All the term, yes. I used to count the days.

Did you have long holidays?

No, not very. Well - five or - five weeks at Christmas, three weeks - Easter. Seven in summer. Two days added on each time.

Were your parents interested in how you were getting on at school?

Well they had the report at the end of the term.

What happened if it was bad?

Well it wasn't always true. No.

Did father read it?

Yes. Mm.

Then did he have a word with you about it or not?

Yes, we used to talk about it. It was - all the same it wasn't - it was rather nonsensical. Yes. Mm, I don't think - they didn't know one - really well enough.

Your teachers?

Yes, I - I was a very truthful boy, always spoke the truth, the other boys, a lot of them told lies. Or some of them did and - yes, there was one little boy who was always telling lies, they always believed him and - said I was a very bad boy and - when in fact - and he - they used to concoct all sorts of tales, about - misbehaviour.

Did they not like you?

No, I don't suppose they - did very much. I was always - I remember - I don't remember ever - hedging or going round the point, I told the - I used to tell the truth and the others used to make - make up stories.

Do you think they resented you being a relation of the headmaster?

I don't know. I think I - I think I scored rather, I mean he was awfully - he was rather brutal and - knocking people about and beating, and - they had a - a dispute once over me in the headmaster said I - was very stupid not to do something or other and they - his wife stood - being a B. - stood - stood up for me. So in that way I got let off a - a - and once I was - I was called up for bullying someone and - which I hadn't really done at all, he'd been bullying me, but - he had - they didn't say anything to me about it, I was sent up to report my bad behaviour but - I just heard in silence.

Do you think they were frightened your father would come down?

Well they knew it was a - horrid little boy, I'd - I'd just given him - I'd give him - given him a smack or a punch or something. And - he probably deserved it I think the headmaster had given him many whacks and apparently you know, think he sympathised with me. No I got on - all right there.

Were there any gangs in the school do you remember, a group of boys together against other boys?

Oh - sometimes, there was a rather - nasty boy with a stiff leg who was - boys with impediments - always - they're apt to be rather nasty aren't they. But otherwise - no, there wasn't anything - much of that sort. I was once called up to give witness about - some boys who were - supposed to have treated me badly but - I said they didn't, only mild teasing and just - I - well I was - more Christian than some of them with being brought up in a vicarage, kind of animals and that sort of thing, we - I think -

They were not?

Well I thought not.

What did you think of them, because you hadn't really met many English boys before that had you?

No. Well some were very very nice - one can sort out the nice boys.

Did you have a special friend?

I had a friend who - French boy for a - rather special friend once, I - at that school.

French was he?

Yes. I always - went after foreigners. Yes. In the army I was - when I was in the Great War stretcher bearing I was best friends with a - Welsh Nationalist who - was very naughty fellow really, burnt down a lot of army huts afterwards. I oughtn't to have been a friend of his, but I always - sympathised with those sort of people. And a Scotsman. But -

When you left your little school you were fourteen?

Fourteen I was then.

And you went to then to Kings?

I tried to get a scholarship at Eton of all places. Of course I - I couldn't get that. Then I went to St Edwards's school. Mm.

That's at Cambridge is it?

That's at Oxford. Yes. That's a - a pretty good school now I think, but it was - only starting when I went there, at least it was - fairly small.

Did you get a scholarship to there?

I got a scholarship there, yes, forty pounds. A fair amount in those days.

Did you feel your parents were having to sacrifice to send you to these schools or not?

Yes. Oh yes. Well they - I was - they gave me to understand they were, of course they things were so different in those days. Mm. Prices and everything were very different. I think they had a fairly hard time. Because - we - had the wretched system of - having to track round for the tithe. And the farmers never wanted to pay it, and - then they don't - don't know whether they - ever got their proper stipends. So I mean you - probably they did have a hard time. And they only had about - they had about three hundred or so a year, that had to be - waited for and looked for.

And they had quite an establishment to keep up didn't they?

Yes. Well you - we had to - entertain practically almost the whole parish. All the children and places come and be entertained - I think - well Sunday school and that meant - every child in the place, it was different then. We entertained all the various - church organisations, ringers - there are not any of them now hardly any, as far as I can see, and - choirs.

Did your parents have their own friends, their own personal friends?

Oh yes. Yes.

What sort of people would they have been?

Oh we used to - visit round much more in those days I think than they do now.

What kind of people, the local aristocracy?

Local aristocracy partly and - and local - vicars and - curates which they used to have in those days. They used to - have them in at Christmas, and - play horses on the floor. Terrifically - very childish. Well we were young when we first went to - but the - one or two visits and letters that I've had from these people - since, lately they've - they've said - and it's very nice of them to say so, how much - how much nicer it was in those days when we were - all one family, I suppose it was in a way. In a village, yes.

Do you remember when you were at home if your parents didn't like you to play with certain children, were they particular about who?

No, no, I don't think they - we didn't see so very much of the - children round about, no, I don't remember.

In the school holidays you just played at home did you?

Mm. Yes. Yes.

But they didn't tell you expressly not to go and play with the village children?

No, I don't think - no. No, we were very friendly with them. Yes.

Did you have dinner parties, do you remember your parents having dinner parties?

Yes, yes. We had dinner parties, yes, sometimes. Mm. Beer and that sort of thing. Except that we had to be - all teetotallers in those days because - there was a cam - a campaign against drunkenness. But we used to get in drinks for -

What would they be offered?

They were - oh beer mostly or possibly cider I think. Beer mainly. They seemed to enjoy. And wine sometimes. Which I thought very wonderful.

So there were a lot of people coming in and out of the vicarage were there?

Yes. Yes, there were, yes, oh we used to have - used to go round calling in the neighbourhood in - little pony cart. Mm.

You children were taken were you?

Yes, were taken. I never - I never even had a horse of my own or rode about like I did - when I was abroad on Norfolk Island.

Did you miss that?

Yes, very much and they taught us dancing at school which I didn't like at all and -

Which school?

That was the - Kent school, yes. And I - I wanted riding - seemed much more to the point.

You danced with each other did you?

Danced - with each other. About three little girls used to come in from the neighbourhood.

You didn't think much of that at that age?

No.

At your little school what was your favourite lesson?

Well - geography - I think, and - then we had a scientific lesson too which amused me very much.

Why?

Doing funny little experiments. With - rubbing a - fountain pen, which we had then against some - cloth, and making it pick up bits of paper. Experimented with - with a pen - pendulum, which was made to measure a yard and that sort of thing. But I liked geography very much because I was good at that. Because I'd travelled and that sort of beat everybody else. Place names and countries, rivers and that and mountains and things.

Did you find it very different when you got to St Edwards?

Oh yes, yes, very different there.

A bigger school?

Oh yes, three times the size, about a hundred boys then, it's got much bigger since.

What was the emphasis there?

There we - it was all Latin and Greek in those days. No - nothing else seemed to matter at all. Headmaster came and - gave instruction on the Bible every week. But he was very foolish, he - he let the boys play about all - I hated - hated the whole thing because I - naturally had respect for the Bible and - he ought to have - come now, treat it very severely. And some of the fellows - said most dreadful, wicked, blasphemous things. I didn't like that part of it at all. And -

Was it a spartan sort of school or was it quite comfortable?

Oh - was sparse - spartan sort of school yes, the most spartan I should think in England. Yes. Yes.

What was spartan about it?

Well we had no warm water or hot water at all at any time. And - we were kept in order, beaten out. Yes. Yes. I had a whack - whacking before I'd been there a fortnight. Mm.

What did you do?

Oh just didn't notice something, hadn't been - I supposed to clear up the classroom before the - les - before the lesson. I forgot this, I got beaten for that. They were always whacking people.

For quite small things?

Yes. I got whacked for a thing that someone else had done - another time.

Did you tell them someone else had done it?

No. Used to - great deal of emphasis on the discipline. I can't think what'll happen now that the headmaster doesn't believe in any - corporal punishment goes there 'cos that was the - sort of how they kept the place together I think.

They were quite big boys by then?

Yes. Yes. Oh they had to be - severe as far as I cold see, the sort of boys - that were about then.

Were they from the same sort of families as your other school?

No, they weren't at all the same sort of families, they - they were much poorer families and - half of them were from parson's families. Yes. Yes.

Not so well behaved?

No, not particularly, no. Don't think so, rather worse - no, they weren't they were - I don't think they were so well behaved as the - first lot of boys I was with. Rather rough sort of boys.

Were you cold in the school, cold in bed?

Oh frightfully, yes. Mm. Those were frightfully cold places.

What about the food?

Oh it wasn't - I do think - didn't think it was very good there. At breakfast you had some sort of stilly they'd call it almost I think.

What was that?

A sort of porridge that - was very - not very appetising, you know, sloshy, messy. And - and great chunks of white bread and butter which wasn't really very - hygienic I don't think, the - we never had - any - any other course for breakfast which - I think my brother had. Never had any eggs or anything to brighten up breakfast. Then - lunch we just - had very sloshy potatoes and - stringy meat. But things weren't very well - not very good. The evening - in the evening nothing but bread and butter again. This - very - thick pieces, very thinly scraped over. It was a rather poor school.

Were the boys healthy?

No, I don't think the schoolboys ever seemed very healthy. No. Don't know whether schoolgirls are. No, I don't think they always looked scabby to me and pimply. Mm.

Do you remember a lot of them going sick?

Yes - every now and then. I don't think it was a sufficient diet. And - it - the life wasn't - very hygienic either. We had an indoor - an outdoor swimming bath, I suppose that was - something, but - when I first went there we didn't even have soap to - not the - main part of the body. Just - just cold water, yes, diving in and out and - about - twenty towels - among a hundred boys, yes. So you can - so - I always stayed in the water a good long time, when I came out the towels were nearly black. And thin. Yes. I just put my clothes on and - streaming, I was wet all over. Amazingly survived it all.

Did your parents know about this?

Yes, well it was a struggling school and - a much more enlightened headmaster came to to it - in my second term, and he insisted that every boy should - have something extra for breakfast besides this very thin porridge and - bread and scrape, and - and - saw that - that - that the bating arrangements and washing arrangements were much better. Everyone had a clean towel, there was - of his own, which was - well there was an outburst - an outbreak of ringworm all over the school. Yes. Which is - head ringworm.

That's because of unhygienic things?

It is, yes, and - well I don't know, that wasn't all over the school, there was an outbreak of ringworm and - you know, not right about that, some of the boys got it and had to be segregated. Yes. And we used to see them walking about themselves, all over the place and - keep away from them. Yes, like lepers, yes. And after that - all headgear was banned, we - started going about without our hats, as I still do, or a cap. It - it's quite a good idea to let the sun in on your head.

Did you have to wear a uniform there?

Well were expected to wear rather dark coloured things. And - that - that was all and - no, not a uniform really.

Did your parents come to see you at this school?

Oh yes, they were always coming.

They liked that school?

Yes, they liked the school and they liked to be - come up to Oxford. Mm. Was your brother there too?

Yes. No, he wasn't there, he was at Eastbourne. Yes. Yes. I - gathered Eastbourne was much more comfortable and - a nice school it was. But still -

Do you think the education was good at your school?

Yes, I think it was pretty good, I think the headmaster was a very good teacher. He used to - I was in the sixth form, top form - I think nearly half the time I was there, and - I got in contact with him quite a lot and - I used to be entranced at his teaching, and - his - classes - ancient history lessons were - were awfully - interesting. Mm. He used to give talks about the - use of sea power and that sort of thing, how the Greek ships rammed into the Persian ships and I found it great fun as most boys do - like that sort of - sort of thing.

Were they all masters, no women teachers in those days?

No. No, there ware no women teachers, no, none at all.

Were the other masters good did you think?

No, they were - none none of them were quite so different again who were quite so good. They were a long way behind I think, the - even the best one.

Did they have a reasonable standard of living or were they poorly paid do you think?

Oh - oh I think they got about a hundred and fifty a year. Mm, yes. Think I think that's - that's about all. Headmaster used to get about four hundred a year in those days. Mm. But he is - he is a very fine man, the - the one that I was with. He was - oh he was a very fine man, he's - got a very high standard and he taught us all the - best things and - he was very religious and - and I think - I think for - a lot of them - for some reason or other - couldn't bear him, I don't know why that was. I liked him very much.

Do you think he had a lot of influence on you?

Oh rather, yes, yes.

More than your father, do you think?

Well he did in a way. He - had me up to his room and he - he said - he knew my character exactly, he said - well you won't be - I can't see that you'll be good - at anything - you won't be good as a teacher and - you won't enjoy it much if you go abroad in some government post. And I said, well - whatever can I do then, I shant get any - and he said - said to me - well the - it's not you, it's Jesus Christ that will help you. And he said, if you - get to know Jesus Christ and follow him, believe in him, he'll - you can do anything. It was a wonderful thing for a - master to say so I - I said, well - it's all right then. There's - there's a way - secret - that's the secret of life, he said, yes. And he persuaded me - used to take us out for walks and we started off on a walk, I used to walk with him sometimes, and he persuaded me to take up - the profession I have taken up. Mm. Yes.

And so you decided to go to Leeds?

Yes, Leeds Clergy School.

How did you come to go there?

Well we met - I met the - principle of the clergy school, he was - a don at my college at Cambridge. And -

Which was your college?

College.

Is that a theological college?

No, it's just a - it was just one of the colleges, I don't think there's much - difference. That way. Some have more than others but - it - hadn't got a lot of - very much emphasis I always thought. So I'm - annoyed with the college now because - I think it's not been true to its - traditions.

If you weren't any good at anything how did you get to university?

Well - I was quite good at - I'd got - I was a good scholar in the main, I was fairly good, and - I very nearly got a scholarship to - up to Cambridge, an exhibition. And then - I wanted - to go abroad, be a missionary somewhere, and he said, well if you want to do that - be a missionary we'll - we've got funds that will help you. And they got - me funds amounting to - over seventy pounds a year. And - missionary funds. From various quarters. And they said, you can - set out and you've got those on your own merits because - you're near enough - to a scholarship - to merit them. As I - yes, oh yes, so I had that and I - I kept that seventy pounds a year - all through my spell at Cambridge.

How long were you there?

Three years. Another year at Leeds Theological College. All the time I had that help. Yes. Parents only had - my father and mother had gone by then but - my parents only had - about thirty pounds a year to find. Fees in those days were about a - hundred a year I think at Cambridge.

Did you like the university life?

Oh yes, yes, I liked it - very much, yes, very much indeed.

Did you work hard or did you have a good time as well?

No, I had - I didn't work at all in - that sense. There were too many distractions there. There was all the social life and - there was the - the sports too and - and then we were very keen - missionaries there then. And - I used to go to their meetings. But I didn't settle to - to anything you could call work really.

Did you get a degree?

Yes, I just got the degree but - I should have got an honours degree, I only got a pass degree. But still it doesn't make -

Do you regret that or do you think you made the most of the life of the university?

I used to regret it, I - don't think it - makes much difference now. But - oh but - difficulties about settling down at the university.

Did you have girlfriends?

No. No. No, I never - never got on with girls. My brother did but - although - it's different from those days. Oh I like the girls now. They seem to be -

I suppose you had to be introduced before you cold speak to any of them?

Oh goodness yes. Stupid, dreadful, silly, I wouldn't go back to those days that sort of thing.

Were there many girls in the university?

Well there was a girl's college about a hundred yards from us. We used to meet one of them sometimes. A young lady called Miss Scott used to come into our rooms. Nellie Scott, yes, I - yes, we had - we had some contact with them, I shouldn't have said we had nothing to do with them. A nice girl, and we knew the people in the - in the town a bit, and - used to meet the - townspeople sometimes. Mm. It was very different from these days.

Can you remember how people were divided into classes, how did you think of them, in different levels?

Well, the - used to be the - class of people we called the poor who were - earned about eighteen shillings a week. And I suppose there were - middle class people like ourselves.

Were there people like tradesmen between the poor and yourselves?

Yes, I suppose there were really, there were - the village people who lived very primitively. And - the - had nothing compared with what - everybody has now. Don't think they had any baths or - certainly didn't have washing machines or cars. Not even bicycles a lot of them. Very primitive sort.

How about people who kept shops?

Yes, then there was - that sort of class of people.

Did you feel they were comfortably off financially?

Yes, yes, I think they were. Well they could earn what they liked really.

But they were below you in social scale were they?

Yes, I suppose they thought they were in those days. Yes, they - we used to have sort - sort of three strata in the place. The - the labouring class, the - the farmers, and - schoolmasters and those sort of people. Then the big man who lived in the big house.

Which one did you belong to?

Well they were - we mustn't belong to any - class, you aren't supposed to but we - I suppose we did really.

Which one did you feel you belonged to?

Oh it - I think we thought we were upper class. But - we - we - we weren't really, I mean we - lived along very differently from the - people in the - big houses.

But you were invited to their houses?

Oh yes, yes, we were, yes, we - yes, we met them as equals. And so it didn't make - much difference really. There were - very wealthy people in those days about, great - much greater - distinctions of wealth and property. That sort of thing.

What sort of people did you call the poor people, were they very much tied by their employers in the village, did they depend very much on them?

Yes, I - yes, I think - think they did. 'Cos they - they didn't have very many needs. They got things frightfully cheaply. I never thought they - paid the same sort of prices as other people did, we did.

You mean they got things from the farms?

Yes, they got a lot from the farms. I think from the shops they had - must have had preference on all sorts of - prices.

Were they respectful to you and your family?

Yes. Oh frightfully, yes.

Did they touch their caps?

Oh yes, rather, or pulled their - forelocks and - little girls bobbed up and down, which I don't see being - much of nowadays. No.

Did they do that to you to?

Yes, yes.

How were you known in the village?

They used to - they used to call me Master Frank - Master Frank and my brother Master Jack. They used to pull their forelocks or - bob - bob up and down if they meet us. And - one vicar told them not to do that I - but I - I thought he was wrong, I mean they seemed to enjoy being polite, it was - the way they thought of being polite I suppose.

Who was the most important man in the village?

Oh - well I don't know, father possibly. Yes. But there's a big man employed a lot of - Welshmen of course, Welsh extract who ran big works, big engineering works and they're all - all over the world I think, Allan lived in our village.

Was he respected in the same way?

Yes, oh I suppose they had to, they - there were none - not very many strikes and that sort of thing then, they were only - just beginning I think. And - I used to - support the strikes in my mind and - I got up a contribution once to help the - families. Mm.

What sort of people - do you remember a chapel at all anywhere?

Yes, we had the Wesleyan chapel as they called it then.

What sort of people, what was the difference between people who went to church and those who went to chapel?

Well I don't think there's much difference, there's any - particular difference.

Was there a class difference?

No I don't think so. The chapel minister was - wasn't like the present ones who - dress themselves up like us, he was - he might be a grocer or - he wasn't an educated man in those days. And - he didn't - wear any sign of office, now he goes about with his collar on and - yes.

What sort of people would go to his chapel?

Oh - there's an old Yorkshire lady - called Lunt Liz by everybody was - a great - important person there, great leader in the chapel. We used to meet there sometimes, go and have services with them. We weren't so stand offish as -

There was communication between you?

I think so - I think - better communication perhaps than there is now. In some ways. My father used to - used to say sometimes, if you want anything done - go to the Wesleyans as they called them then, go to the - nonconformists. Mm. And then they'd add up - I think the church people are really the best but - they're rather slow and - chapel people are - more go-ahead. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, they did. I don't know what they got their - salaries from. I suppose from collections from these - poor people.

Did you feel that the Wesleyans minister was on the same level as your father socially?

No, I didn't think - didn't quite think that, no.

Did your parents have the same sort of attitude towards social class or were they different in their attitudes?

Mm - well they had the same - everybody had the same sort of attitude then.

Mother and father agreed on matters of class?

Yes. Yes. I think so, yes. It didn't mix them up, you couldn't, but we entertained them all from time to time. At parties - for them all. Mm. You have to keep in touch with everybody.

Would you say your father worked hard at his job?

Oh tremendously hard, yes. Yes, well he had so many jobs. Vicar of the Parish. He was chaplain of a - well one of these - waifs and strays home, girl's homes as they called it in those days. And - and chaplain of - it was called the Shephers for girls who'd gone astray. So - he had a lot of - organisations he was interested in, then his - commissary to the Bishop of London Esher. He - had a tremendous lot of work there.

He was a very active man then?

Was very active, he travelled about a lot, although all over the place giving lectures on - mission, and - kept - keeping in touch and seeing people who wanted to go there. They used to come round and see him. He was always at work on something in his study or - parish or - going abroad, he had - tremendous lot of work and influence in the neighbouring town, Bedford. Mm. And - almost all the organisations in the town he kept in touch with. I don't - I only do it, there in Banbury for instance, never had - lived by the back boundary for long time.

He must have been a very busy man?

Yes, he was very busy indeed, yes, yes.

Did you have a policeman in your village?

Yes. Yes, yeah, res - resident policeman. Had a cottage there.

Was he a friend or an enemy?

Oh a great friend - oh I think so, yes. Don't remember very much about him though.

Was there much crime in the village?

No, I don't - drunkenness, that sort of thing. And they got drunk - the men got drunk on Saturday nights. Not the women I think very much, there were one or two cases. One place a - young girl came in with bruises all over her body and she'd been beaten up. Mm. By a drunken old lady. Mm. Yes. There were these whacks over her - her shoulders. Yes. Yes, there were - there were - that sort of thing went on occasionally. Children were - occasionally - neglected or ill-treated.

Can you remember your birthday, was it usually at home or at school?

It's at school I think always was yes, November the tenth. St Martins Eve. I was born - St Martins Even in St Martin's Parish - my father was rector of St Martins Parish and my - grandma other was - patron. And then they were going to call me Martin.

Would you have liked to have bean called Martin?

Yes I would. Yes.

Did you have a good birthday at school, did they make anything special of it?

No, no. No, I don't think the school knew anything - didn't think the school - school would know anything about it.

Wouldn't know when your birthday was?

No I don't think so.

Did your parents send you presents?

Oh yes - yes, they - they would. Well I suppose in my prep school, they were my own relations, I suppose they - made a fuss, perhaps made a - made a bit of fuss. And -

You didn't have a birthday cake or anything?

Oh no, no. Don't remember - no, I can't - can't remember having any presents.

Could you describe to me Christmas at home?

Oh that was as I said, that's very much a parish - affair. He - had the Holy Communion in the morning. All the parish turned up everybody - who could, Holy Communion.

Was that early service?

Yes. And - we had functions - first half of Christmas Day, with the - the children coming - coming in. And - I think their got oranges and that sort of thing. And then the - second half of the day we - we kept to ourselves. Had - functions at home.

What sort of things would you do?

Well - playing horses. On the floor.

And presents did you have?

Oh yes. Yes. The postman used to stagger round on Christmas morning - in the snow if there was any snow, there wasn't usually - with - simply loaded with - presents which - he had to walk - he had to walk on foot with, loaded with all these - things, he must have - hated - Christmas morning I should think.

Did you have a lot of presents at Christmas time?

Yes. Yes, well the post used to get in about eleven instead of about eight. Yes, so weighted down with this load.

Did he come in for a drink?

No, I don't remember the postman - other people did - ring us and - choir singers. Then we had parties for everybody - body, on or about Christmas.

Did you have your own Christmas dinner or lunch?

Oh yes, yes.

Which did you have, an evening one?

Evening - evening always, yes. Well we had services up 'til midday.

Did you have the traditional Christmas dinner?

Yes, I think we did, yes. Always - turkey as far as I remember, plum pudding and mince pies. Always got ill after it. A hearty meal I should think. Yes, eat too much.

Were you a musical family at all?

No, my mother was pretty musical, yes.

Did you have musical evenings singing together?

Oh yes, we had - had them, yes.

Did father join in?

He couldn't sing much. No. And - I don't remember him singing at this sort of - evenings. It's - he did sometimes at parish affairs at weddings and - things of that sort it just wasn't - the old fashioned songs in those days. Yes, 'Timothy White was a Cheesemongers Boy', and that sort of thing.

The what?

'Timothy White was a Cheesemonger's Boy' and - silly things. And 'There Were Three Sailors of Bristol City'. And - but mother was - she was the - one for - singing, and played very beautifully. Yes. And sing - contralto, and she used to get - singers - people who could sing to come in, any gentlemen as a rule who fancied their voices. That was at Norfolk Island too a lot. In England. Yes.

Did you children sing?

No, I don't think we - well, we could just - sang easy songs.

Where you in a choir at all?

At - at home, not - not at school.

You were at home?

Oh yes. Yes.

Did you have to be?

No, we didn't have to be anything we - were very very loyal, not like - children nowadays. We'd never - never miss a service at church or - don't always keep up to that now but -

Did you play any - games at home in the family?

Yes, well we - played - cricket about the place and -

Card games at all?

Oh yes, we had - we used to play card games, yes. Chiefly whist I think, we didn't - we didn't get on to bridge, but - we had - we had to rely on our own sources, you - couldn't turn the wireless on. You had to invent all sorts of games or - heaps of games we used to have. Mm. Consequences and - all sorts of things, Beg o'my neighbour - heads, boeis and legs and drawing games, historical games. Drawing scenes and guessing them. All that sort of thing has gone out. Do nothing but turn on the wireless now.

I expect there were a lot of books in your house were there?

Yes - quite a lot of books. And -

Was your father a great reader?

Oh yes, yes, read a good bit. He had - prizes from Eton College and those sort of places - I've got some of them still new.

He read them did he?

I don't know that he read them very much, he was usually engaged on the latest book out, he was - very much up to date.

How about your mother, did she read?

I don't think she did very much.

Newspapers did you have, magazines?

We had a - paper, the 'Daily Mail'. That's about all.

No magazines, no women's magazines?

No, I don't think - don't remember them. Considered ourselves very poor in those days. Whether we were - so badly off I - don't know, it - seems to me that they're much - more prosperous days for people like ourselves than - these days - than recent days have been. Not so bad now. Money went further.

Did your mother read aloud to you or your father when you were very little?

Oh yes, father used to read. Tennyson sometimes and used to -

Tennyson?

Yes, we used to call for it.

You liked it did you?

Oh yes. Loved it - the death of Arthur, passing of Arthur.

No children's books?

Well the Just So Stories and - Rudyard Kipling. About all.

Can you remember a funeral, your father must have officiated at many funerals?

Mm.

Did you ever remember going to one? Can you tell me what they were like?

I didn't go very much to funerals. Went to our mother's. Rather weepy things as far as I can remember. People crying. But I -

Did everyone dress in black?

Oh much - yes, more than they do now. Wore arm - arm bands, black armbands - for some time after. When my - my mother passed on it was beginning to alter, there was less of - that sort of outward - rather - showy sort of mourning. Of course they had a tremendous lot in France, especially among Roman Catholics didn't they, those days. Dreadful - looking things, they - awful looking coaches and - black over - with black ribbons and decorations, dreadful, but - that sort of thing gradually - went out and - there were so many killed in the war, in the Great War weren't there. Funeral and deaths - became - all too familiar.

What sort of holidays did you have as a child, do you remember?

Holidays from school.

Going away with your parents?

Oh going, away, yes. Yes, we - we started - a bit of going off to the seaside, and bathe - swimming and -

How long would you have gone for?

About a month. I think it was. Had a good time. About three Sundays usually.

Where did you go usually?

Went out - the north coast of Norfolk. That's a most vilely - cold part. Yes. Took a cottage, a rented cottage there, which we shared with the inhabitants. Yes.

They looked after you?

Yes, they gave us meals and -

And you all went together did you?

All - all went together. Didn't like it very much, it was - very rough and tumble.

Would Bank Holidays have been anything special far you do you remember?

No, noth - nothing special. Sometimes went off for a bike ride.

What as a Saturday like at home?

Well - well Saturday was getting ready for Sunday. Didn't cook any meals on Sunday. It all had to be got ready on - on Saturday. Didn't have a roast dinner - in the middle of the day in those days. Everything cold.

Did you have best clothes on Sundays

Oh yes, yes, always.

And you kept them on all day?

Yes. Everybody did.

How many times a day did you have to go to church when you were little?

We didn't have to go at all, we - no, we - we went of our own accord.

How many times did you go of your own accord then?

Three - three times - well when we were quite small twice. Later on three times.

Was it Sunday school that you went to?

No, we didn't go to Sunday school.

Was there a Sunday school?

There was Sunday school but - the schoolmaster took it but - with our parents I suppose that - we knew as much about it as - the schoolmaster.

Were you allowed to play games or lark about on a Sunday or were your father and mother strict about that?

Well father was - actually always in favour of - Sunday cricket on Sunday afternoon, he always - thought it would be a much better way of spending time than - the way these village louts and youths do - did spend it in those days.

So he didn't mind if you played games?

No. Well we actually didn't. Because it didn't seem to be the custom. But -

What did you do then when you weren't at church?

Well went for walks and - looked at the - the - river and the bathing place and had a nice swim, we were awfully fond of swimming. Mm.

But you wouldn't have a swim on a Sunday?

No, we didn't have a swim on a Sunday. Did at school always.

Did your father say grace at meals?

Oh yes, yes, before and after. Mm.

You were encouraged to say your prayers at night were you?

Yes, yes.

Did you have family prayers?

Yes, we did, yes. And in our family it was always prayers at night. Some it was - in the morning but we always had them at night.

Was your father a political man, was he interested in politics?

Oh yes, yes.

What were his politics?

He always voted Conservative. Mm.

And your mother the same?

Yes, we all did I think. I was told at school that it - it was the thing to do and - I always believed that. Before - before I went to school - before they had an election, had an election at - when I was at school, I professed to be a Liberal I remember. I was told that wasn't the right thing. It's quite a respectable thing to be as a matter of fact.

Why did you think you wanted to be a Liberal?

Well I - I - thought - that most people were Liberals and - it seemed a very good thing to be and -

Was your mother interested in politics on her own account?

No I don't think very much, no.

Did she follow what father did?

Yes, yes. Generally I think.

Do you remember them voting in a general election?

Yes, I remember - remember one election - about - 1900 or so I think it was - and all the village voted Liberal in those days, and - and - they talked to us about maids in the - maids the house and - and - all the ordinary people who were Liberals - were Liberals and so - we thought we were - but -

You thought you were?

Yes.

But you weren't?

No. We were terribly - we used to be Conservatives, well - yes, I think - Liberals mostly - non-church non - mostly non-conformist people I think. It's rather political isn't it? Well it is all politics I suppose.

Was there any influence from the squire in the village or did your father have any influence over what the people voted?

Mm.

Did he try to encourage them to vote one way or another do you think?

No he didn't, no. No, he used to preach - a sermon about it at election time. But - telling them to - follow their consciences. No, he didn't - persuade them one way or the other. He - used to say - I shall vote according to my own ways, you must all - make up your own - minds, we went to all the - meetings. Mm. Yes.

Were they exciting?

No. Very quiet things. Mm. The Liberal man, he - came from Nottingham, he really told - he really mislead the people because he - he used - he was a Nottingham lace manufacturer, and he lived at Nottingham, I couldn't quite see why we should - govern from Nottingham, and - the Conservative was usually a local person, he told - they were lace making - community in those days, they told the people that he'd get them market for their lace, of course he wouldn't, he was a -

If they voted for him?

Yes. Of course he couldn't, he was a - they made lace in - in factories and mills and - nothing to do with those village people who made hand lace. Yes, they - rather took notice of him. Of course he also - Liberals also in those days they - were in favour of free trade, no tariffs, no - what do you call them, no taxes on - imported - yes, no - what do call them, no rev - no - no revenues from imported things and no - be much cheaper.

Did they have difficulty in selling their lace?

Can't think what they did with it. They used to sell it I think sometimes. Very beautiful - handmade lace.

You were telling me that your father used to be quite involved in other things other than church, other charities?

Yes, mostly - church organisations.

Did your mother have any interests outside the house?

Well - not a - she knew people in the village and she - helped them, take things. Do them rice puddings and things of that sort. Oh well I suppose - they were more needy than they are now.

So she looked after them a bit?

Yes. They got no help from the government, or very little - in any case.

Did she ever go out by herself in the evenings, would she have any sort of friends of her own that she'd go and visit?

I don't think so. No, don't think she - occasionally she - she'd go to a dance or something of the sort with a neighbour that - Mm.

With father?

Yes. Yes. I think so, I -

They enjoyed that did they?

Yes. I think they went together.

Was father a sporting man at all?

No.

But he liked cricket?

No, he - not good any - any sports, not cricket or -

Never went racing?

Oh goodness no. Well he came from a racing sporting family but he never was interested himself, no, not really.

He never had a bet?

No. No, didn't get that amount interested.

Do you remember if your family was involved in any sort of savings club?

Well there's a - there's a clothing club in the place. And - they all put about a penny a week I think. Old fashioned penny.

Did your father run it?

We all ran - well mother I think looked after it.

But you as a family didn't ever belong to it?

No, no. No.

Were there any insurance's or sick things?

I'm not sure. A sick benefit club, no, I don't think we - had anything to do with that sort of thing, and the - other societies, Oddfellow groups and - Free Forrester's there was.

Do you remember going to any theatres or concerts or music halls when you were young?

Oh - yes, we went to the theatre.

Did you like it?

Yes. Thrilled with it, yes. Yes.

Would you have gone regularly?

Well we went at - in the winter round about Christmas.

Father and mother went too did they?

Yes. Yes, we all went, yes. Oh they were thrill - thrilling things. 'Prisoner of Zenda' and - 'Monsieur Beaucare'. All those sort of things.

How about music hall, were you ever allowed to go to that?

No, I don't think we - we just had - I don't remember much of that, but we had a muse - musical festivals at - in the town, I think, Bedford, occasionally.

Did you have any pocket money when you were young?

Yes, we had - took back about five shillings to school. Little more.

Did you have any to spend at home in the holidays?

Yes, about that sort of amount, I think we had to ask for it usually. They didn't go about - scattering pound notes as they children do and -

What did you spend your money on, do you remember?

On - model ships and trains and - steam engines.

Sweets?

Yes. Yes. And sometimes gave - quite a lot to - some needy - cause, like victims of an earthquake. Mm. Gave up to about a pound. Yes.

Of your own money?

Yes, I gave a pound a Christmas present which I'd just received, went straight into - offertory at Christmas. Pound. Yes.

Can we talk a bit about your clergy school?

Oh, that at Leeds.

You went there in?

19 - 11. Yes.

Can you tell me a bit about it, what it was like there?

Yes. Well we - there were about twenty or thirty of us, thirty I think, we had the - old Mayor's house, at Leeds, the Mayor of Leeds had originally lived there. And -

Was it in the centre of the town?

Yes, right in the centre, yes. And on a hill, you could look down - practically the whole smoky town. Very smoky those Yorkshire towns were. And - well we - got up about seven and - had a service every morning. Morning Prayer. Holy Communion about once a week I think. Then on Sunday. And - short service in the evening. Two shot services. Evensong and Complin. And then we - went out to - practice ourselves in different parishes. And - we taught in Sunday schools. They're enormous great - institutions. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of children.

How did you find that?

Rather noisy rowdy things. Rather - these children, rather wild some of them. And then in the evenings we went out and preached sermon - to the long-suffering people. Sometimes children, sometimes - at a maternity home. Mm. Strange - strange place to send us to - I preached on the - Four Devils of the Apocalypse to them. Four - four dragons was it and - some dreadful subject.

Were you nervous at first?

Oh frightfully, yes, yes.

Which was worse, the maternity home or the Sunday school?

Oh the Sunday school I think. And the maternity home - it wasn't so much trouble. Well the Sunday school was - it had a superintendent

Did you have any free time to enjoy yourself there?

Oh yes, we used to - play games on a bit of a - had a nice lawn and we used to - go and play cricket with the neighbouring teams. Dews - Dewsbury and - places round about Leeds. Schools and all places.

Did you mix much with the people of the town or were you kept rather to yourselves?

Well - no, we mixed up with - we went visiting in our - in parishes which were assigned to us. Yes.

So you were kind of student priests really?

Yes. It's a very good place - there was a lot going on there, a great city like Leeds. A very fine place, great pity they - dropped it 'cos it gave - us a lot of practical experience and to got to know these people.

Were you surprised at all by what you found in Leeds? Poverty, or things that you hadn't expected?

Not particularly I don't think. Certain amount of out of work. Didn't seam to be desperate poverty in Leads. They were beginning to strike for higher wages. Which were about this thirty shillings a week then, but then - the value was different wasn't it.

Did you feel at any time that you'd done the wrong thing, that you weren't in the right job?

Oh goodness, had awful worries. I was miserable at first, yes. Mm.

Because you thought you couldn't do it?

Yes, terrified. Yes, I was miserable at first.

Were the others miserable too?

I don't know. Seemed fairly quite happy.

Did you make friends with people there?

Yes.

There weren't many of you were there?

Oh yes, yes, I met some of them. I met one of them, and awfully liked - two of them. Then - dropped them now I think though. They may be dead for all I know, some of them.

What was your standard of living like there?

No, it was quite a nice standard of living. Yes.

It was better than school was it?

Oh yes, much better. Nicest - mealtimes were on Fridays. Because we had a fast day then and - used to make - nice cakes, to make up for our - supposed austerities. And we - had fish, which I thought was so much nicer than meat.

You don't like meat?

I don't, I never have now. It don't have any animal food at all now. And I feel better without it.

Did you have exams to pass at the end of this period of training?

Oh dear, I don't remember exams at that place. I don't think we did.

Did it get easier as you got into it, you began to forget your worries did you?

Yes, after a while. Took a long time.

Were you homesick?

When - I was awfully homesick at school.

At Leeds were you homesick?

Oh no. No.

Because you'd been away at university?

Not homesick then.

Was your father interested in what you were doing there?

Oh yes, yes, of course he was, yes.

He kept an eye on you did he?

Yes. Yes.

Did you get home to visit much?

Yes, I got - got home - in the holidays. In my first parish I was a vicar - accused me bitterly of having seven week's holiday - in the year, but -

Was your first real parish?

Yes, that was first - I was assistant at - my brother came back from Canada then and - I wanted to see him. And - spent a good deal of time - together. He thought I was very much pampered.

Spoilt?

Yes. Yes.

When you were at Leeds, did you ............

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